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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 2:49 pm 
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Holy Crap! :shock: Look at THIS! I did some searching, and these guys are getting a lot of media attention, and they've gained about 850 volunteers for April 1st at Tombstone. Anybody here in AZ?

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'Minutemen' plan to patrol Arizona border

Volunteers want to stop illegal immigrants entering U.S.


WASHINGTON (AP) -- Intent on securing the vulnerable Arizona border from illegal immigrant crossings, U.S. officials are bracing for what they call a potential new threat this spring: the Minutemen.

Nearly 500 volunteers have already joined the Minuteman Project, anointing themselves civilian border patrol agents. They plan to patrol a 40-mile stretch of the southeast Arizona border throughout April when the tide of immigrants crossing the U.S.-Mexico border peaks.

"I felt the only way to get something done was to do it yourself," said Jim Gilchrist, a retired accountant and decorated Vietnam War veteran who is helping recruit Minutemen across the country.

"We've been repeatedly accused of being people who are taking the law into our own hands," said Gilchrist, 56, of Aliso Viejo, California "That is an outright bogus statement. We are going down there to assist law enforcement."

Officials concede the 370-mile Arizona border is the most porous stretch on the U.S.-Mexico line. Moreover, recent intelligence indicates that al Qaeda terrorists are likely to enter the country through the Mexican border, James Loy, the deputy secretary of the Homeland Security Department, said last week.

"Several al Qaeda leaders believe operatives can pay their way into the country through Mexico, and also believe illegal entry is more advantageous than legal entry for operational security reasons," Loy said in written testimony to the Senate Intelligence Committee.

Of the 1.1 million illegal immigrants caught by the U.S. Border Patrol last year, 51 percent crossed into the country at the Arizona border. The agency increased the number of agents in the Tucson sector, which has its largest staff, from 1,700 to 2,100 over the last 18 months.

But that number is going to grow to try to plug the remaining holes, said Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Robert C. Bonner. About 10,000 federal agents now patrol the 2,000-mile southern border, he said.

Officials fear the Minuteman patrols could cause more trouble than they prevent. At least some of the volunteers plan to arm themselves during the 24-hour desert patrols. Many are untrained and have little or no experience in confronting illegal border crossings.

"Any time there are firearms and you're out in the middle of no-man's land in difficult terrain, it's a dangerous setting," said Bonner, whose agency is keeping a close eye on the Minutemen plans.

"The Border Patrol does this every day, and they are qualified and very well-trained to handle the situation," he said. "Ordinary Americans are not. So there's a danger that not just illegal migrants might get hurt, but that American citizens might get hurt in this situation."

Civilian patrols are nothing new along the southern border, where crossing the international line is sometimes as easy as stepping over a few rusty strands of barbed wire. But they usually are limited to small, informal groups, leaving organizers to believe the Minuteman Project is the largest of its kind on the southern border.

It may also prove to be a magnet for what Glenn Spencer, president of the private American Border Patrol, described as camouflage-wearing, weapons-toting hard-liners who might get a little carried away with their assignments.

"How are they going to keep the nut cases out of there? They can't control that," said Spencer, whose 40-volunteer group, based in Hereford, Arizona, has used unmanned aerial vehicles and other high-tech equipment to track and report the number of border crossings for more than two years.

"There's a storm gathering here on the border, and there are conditions ripe for some difficulty," he said.

The border agents agree.

The Minutemen "clearly have every reason to be upset with the federal government for abandoning them," said National Border Patrol Council president T.J. Bonner, no relation to the commissioner.

But "if anything goes wrong, God forbid, someone does injure an agent, this government is going to be turning both barrels on them and come after them with a vengeance," he said.

Gilchrist said the Minutemen are under strict orders to merely identify and follow illegal border crossers and alert federal agents. They should not interact with the immigrants except to offer food, water or medical care. If there's a couple of "bad apples" who turn up in the group, Gilchrist said, they will face prosecution if they step outside the law.

Something dramatic needed to be done to curb the years of crime, property damage and trash dumping caused by the border crossings, Gilchrist said.

"Things are out of control" he said. "And they've been out of control for decades."

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 6:37 pm 
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Moreover, recent intelligence indicates that al Qaeda terrorists are likely to enter the country through the Mexican border


Not to step on anyones toes or anything, but isn't it about time to stop mentioning al Qaeda each and every time anything even remotely has to do with foreign affairs? To me it gets more ridiculous every time I hear about the organization, that can't be the desired effect, can it?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:23 pm 
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I think it's used as a catch all term for foriegn terrorists regardless of whether of not it's actually related. It's like all terrorism acts in Northern Ireland being associated with the IRA.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:26 pm 
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Intelligence has stated time and time again the vulnerability the US has with its southern border for years now, and we don’t seem to be doing much to tighten it up. As long as we keep capturing people over there with plans to infiltrate our country via the southern border, al Qaeda and southern border will continue to be said in the same sentence.

We have a real problem with the US southern border. Terrorist or no terrorist. Add the fact that al Qaeda agents have been caught with plans to enter the US through Mexico… and it is useless to expect any talk about our southern border to end without talking about al Qaeda. It is like talking about Oceans with mentioning the Pacific. It is like talking about the heart with out mentioning blood. It is like talking about the nervous system with out talking about the brain.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:03 pm 
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Let me put it to you all like this -

- I was born in Loas
- I grew up in Austria, India, and England
- I went to college in The States and am a citizen

I would increase the Border Patrol's budget by aboout $2.5 billion annually, and I would pay these people as federal agents until we were able to perform the same duties as effectively.

The biggest problem with immigration reform in this country has to do with the special interest lobbyists for every strawberry picking, corn husking mega corp that exists.

I'd pay $10 a pack for strawberries and any other exorbitant price required to secure our borders.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:18 am 
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Ideally, believe it or not, I actually think we should have an open border policy. Right now, and probably not anytime ever in the future, it's not practical because of all the socialist programs the government is spending money on. As long as the government has their nose in where it doesn't belong (employer relations in the workplace, welfare, social security, healthcare, and on and on and on), we're not able to support an open border.

So thanks to a government who thinks it's their job to give handouts, we have to seal up the borders as tight as possible, and I think it's these citizen's job just as much as the border patrol's.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:18 am 
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Look on the bright side, at least you don't have as much of a problem from Canada!

Edit: ok, that's an assumption, but I'm assuming its a good one! :P

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 10:50 am 
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LOL.. actually all the lefties are going across to Canada from what I hear.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:00 am 
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** Sets up Political Landmine Warning cones around thread **


Proceed with caution folks... this area could be explosive...

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:08 am 
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Yeah, I was thinkin' the same thing. OK.... NOTHING TO SEE HERE FOLKS. MOVE ALONG... MOVE ALONG.

Let's just stop posting here. This could become a hazardous area. Sorry about posting I guess. :roll:

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:05 pm 
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Talon1977 wrote:
LOL.. actually all the lefties are going across to Canada from what I hear.


By lefties if you mean the smart people in the world then yes, you are correct.

This place rocks!! :D

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:43 pm 
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Talon1977 wrote:
Ideally, believe it or not, I actually think we should have an open border policy. Right now, and probably not anytime ever in the future, it's not practical because of all the socialist programs the government is spending money on. As long as the government has their nose in where it doesn't belong (employer relations in the workplace, welfare, social security, healthcare, and on and on and on), we're not able to support an open border.

So thanks to a government who thinks it's their job to give handouts, we have to seal up the borders as tight as possible, and I think it's these citizen's job just as much as the border patrol's.

The problem with an Open Border is that we are now the foremost target for the major Terrorist organizations in the world. Yes, I say now, because before 9-11 most of these organizations thought they didn't stand a chance in America. Now they see that it's possible.

If we opened our borders up then we would literally be inviting them to come over.

I am for changing our policy on Mexico, however that would require that they first implement a secure system for IDing their citizens.

I'm not sure I trust these people above to act properly in this plan, however I understand their desire, and as long as they stay civil and do not intentionally harm anyone I support their effort.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:22 am 
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Conversation taken to PMs, on account of the politics policy. :P :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:35 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:38 am 
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As much as I agree with you locke, gotta play by the rules. :wink:

Why don't you make a proposition to your section director? :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:47 am 
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Somebody get this man a straightjacket.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 10:12 am 
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Locke, that was a friendly warning, reminding everyone of a LONG standing Avian policy.

If you think suggesting some of us are "Ignorant", well, trust me, you don't want to take the conversation that direction.

Keep it civil. But I will not hestitate to have this locked and deleted if it gets out of hand. My job around here is to prevent the kind of thing threads like this can lead to.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:14 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:38 am 
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LOL @ Mike!

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:51 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:22 pm 
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Don't apologize for offending Manti. You're now a member of an elite club within Avian. ;)

just kiddin' Mant, .... whoah buddy, put the knife down....

:P

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 12:26 pm 
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Not offended, just stepping in and citing the reason I expressed concern.

Thats all.

You guys know what my pissed off posts look like, and that wasn't even close, hehe

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:26 pm 
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Mantison Tau'rus wrote:
You guys know what my pissed off posts look like, and that wasn't even close, hehe

That's when you quadruple space everything, right?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 1:29 pm 
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and multiple 4 letter words....don't forget the 4 letter words...and the threats against every known ancestor since Homo sapiens split from Homo Erectus or something whatever to that archeological effect...hehehehhe...it's kind of neat to watch actually...

Hey, Manti - you STINK!!!!!

too much coffee

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hehehehhe...it's kind of neat to watch actually...


Oh yes. Very entertaining. We should schedule times to purposely piss Manti off. Sort of like the group hunting parties we used to have. :P

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I hate you guys....











hehehehe... :twisted:

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 4:08 pm 
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You know I'm sure that the "no potitics or religion" policy was never actually made policy, I think it's just a general unwritten rule that seems to work!


As far as being civil about politics is concerned. The people here come from lots of different cultures, what is reasonable in one may not be in another but for each culture their own definitions of reasonable are perfectly sound. It simply results from how that culture has grown over the ages. Additionally, a forum environment allows arguements to extend over much longer periods of time than they would do normally, plus there is an accurate record of exactly what has been said, so something that gets you angry on one day will get you angry again the next when you reread it. There is no case of the parties involved simply forgetting what the hell it is they're arguing about. So in the end a forum arguement generally ends with lasting bad effects and little chance of reconcilliation. In this case prevention is better than cure and topics where legitimate differences of opinion are expected are best off avoided (and yes I'm as big a culprit of this as any).


EDIT: ok, that's a long-wind way of saying a simple thing but I think it demonstrates why this rule exists.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 7:22 pm 
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Personally I think we need to make a Politics and Religion Forum that is private, and people can only gain access by request.

Manti and I both are a part of a forum that has one, and I think we both agree that things can get pretty dicey sometimes in there. It is important that participants choose to be involved, and are able to keep the discussions and disagreements behind those closed doors.

What do you guys think about that idea?

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I would wholeheartedly support such a forum. And why wasn't I invited to this other forum of yours??? :P

For what it's worth, Moon, madmike and I have gotten into some pretty deep, pretty argumentative debates as of late over at the Moonworld forums. It's good stuff. I don't think either one of those two hippies dislike me anymore than they did before we started into it all. :P And I certainly DO have more respect for both of them, because they've both shown an ability for critical thinking and reasonable debate.

In short, BRING ON ANOTHER FORUM! :D

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:19 pm 
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The below was typed before Gui and talon posted. Stupid me left home with out submitting it.

/agree with X2

It is not as if any of us are crazy or evil, we are from different regions, different situations, different upbringings that cause us to think differently about some issues. The strength of our opinions may vary from subject to subject… in some cases they can seem offensive to other members.

Being that politics and religion did not bring us together, being that the subject of politics and religion did not make us friends… if we all want to stay friends we need to talk about issues that we have in common, issues that brought us together, and not talk about issues that divide us.

This is not just an Avian thing, it is common in any social group. I have family members I know not to talk politics around. My wife can not talk about work around some of her friend coworkers. Hell I have classmates and professors whom I have to watch what school issues I discuss.

Would I love to be able to talk to some of you about politics? You bet-cha, but Avian is not the place because some of our friends here will not appreciate our point of view.


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I think the forum rules about politics and religion are wise ones.
I enjoy a good debate about these subjects, it is always good to get different points of view. Talon thanks for the Moonworld plug, you forgot the link :wink: http://www.moonworld.co.uk/forum/index.php?
It has been a pleasure :D disscussing some interesting subjects with you Talon, hope there are many more to come.

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I, too, like the idea. BUT (and it's a big ol 400 pound deriere that I'm talking about), there would have to be no carry over to the other boards.

Locke, Manti (and sometimes Cyrus)... you guys are great, but I'm afraid that your blood pressure might boil over the sanity point at times... ;) And, we need to have a strict agreement to keep things friendly.

May I suggest calling the board something along the lines of "PvPvPolitics"?

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Alexander Hamilton once wrote, in his Federalist Papers,
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"For in politics, as in religion, it is equally absurd to aim at making proselytes by fire and sword. Heresies in either can rarely be cured by persecution."


I think that's a good observation, one that's worth remembering as we consider the possibilities of this new forum.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:36 am 
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Last edited by Locke_Trinmin on Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 10:39 am 
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You guys can have a whatever forum, I just won't go there.

I am on several boards, and Politics and religion are not an issue there.

Most of my issues on this board stem from severe personality conflicts, not issues.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 12:11 pm 
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LOL@Manti

...hehe, YOU STINK!

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:20 pm 
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Why an Avian politics forum may not be such a good idea....

http://silflayhraka.com/archives/006304.html

God only knows what Mantison might do.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:21 pm 
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I would cut off Talon's fingers in a heartbeat !!!!!!!!!!

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WoW - Dalaran - Manni 85 Mage, Ironmant 83 Warrior, Mantison 80 Hunter
SWG - Chilastra Retired Mantison, Commando / TKA Master aka Trogdor !!!!


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