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 Post subject: London Bombings
PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:53 am 
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I hope you Avians across the pond were not harmed in today’s bombings in London. Please let us know of your wellbeing. We pray that you, your friends, and your family are safe.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:52 am 
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I'm alive and well, as are my family and friends.

If anyone wants detailed information, the BBC have some very good coverage http://news.bbc.co.uk. As I understand it, there have been two confirmed deaths but I don't think that accounts for those directly hit by the blasts. The authorities here seem to have their heads screwed on so the recovery effort is well organised.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:03 am 
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We pray for the families of the ones who were lost. This is an attrocity and an act of cowardice. Keep us informed of the situation over there.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:08 am 
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33 confirmed deaths from the bombings on the Tube. Deaths from the bomb on the bus is still unknown.

London's Mayor, Ken Livingston, made a very good speech in responce. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660477.stm

There is a website claim from a group calling itself Secret Organisation Group of al-Qaeda of Jihad Organisation in Europe claiming the bombings. This has been uncomfirmed and the specific group has not previously been heard of. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660391.stm

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:27 pm 
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4659933.stm

I have always likes Blair. If for anything else that he is a very eloquent and natural speaker. His comments after 9-11 are what I remember most and his comments now are very heart-felt and personal.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:02 pm 
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Just another Avian getting to the boards to voice support in the form of thoughts and prayers.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:46 pm 
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Respect MP George Galloway said the attacks were "despicable but not remotely unpredictable".

Mr Galloway said Londoners had "paid the price" of the government failing to heed warnings from the security services that attacks on Iraq and Afghanistan would increase the threat of a terrorist attack in the UK.
It's a real shame some people have to use these types of events for political gains.


I have to say I'm very impressed with the efficient responce of the emergency services. To be able to effectively shut down the entire City in two hours is an impressive feat! The buses are already back in action and it looks like the City will be returned to normal working status (with the exception of the immediately affected areas) for the working day tomorrow.

Total casualities are to the tune of about 700 people with 37 deaths confirmed so far.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:00 pm 
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Yes the Mayor did give a great speech. I was hoping Bush would give a good speech like the one Blair gave for is in 2001. Bush's was not very memorable, and it is a shame because that was a great opportunity to display how the US feels towards the safety and wellbeing for you guys.

For a country born from revolution, I find it ironic that 200 years later we love you guys. It is weird to have emotions for a country so far away… but this event pisses me off as if my best friend/brother was attacked. I hope they find these guys that planned and perpetrated this attack.

Do the authorities have any information? I know this many hours after the event her in the US, our authorities released to the press the names, pictures, and connecting flight information for the terrorist who struck us. Are you guys getting any clues? I guess in our case those guys were dead, and in your case they could be alive…. So announcing such info may help/hurt efforts to bring these terrorist in.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:19 pm 
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No info as yet. Detailed investigations probably won't start until the immediate emmergency is over.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:59 pm 
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How close where you to everything?


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 6:02 pm 
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Well I wasn't actually in London, but I could reach it by train in about 20-25 minutes. So a day trip to London is certainly within the bounds of possibility. If you want distances, I'm about 15-20 miles from the centre of London. For reference, Greater London itself is about 25 miles across from west to east.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:01 pm 
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Investigations about bombings usually are tricky, because half of the world's diverse revolutionary groups claim the bombing to be theirs. Usually the tracks can be recovered by tracking where the explosives came from.

However, given the simultaneous explosions and all, this required a large organisation, and Al Quaeda is among the possible perpetrators, this isn't an amateur bombing. The IRA can pretty much be ruled out, not their style, they usually go after the military, not random civilian bombings.

Despite our current rivalries (over the Olympics and european affairs), the french people deeply sympathise with the grief of the families of the victims. Even though I don't like Blair. (Or Chirac, for that matter)

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2005 11:35 am 
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However, given the simultaneous explosions and all, this required a large organisation, and Al Quaeda is among the possible perpetrators, this isn't an amateur bombing.


Several commentaries I've read disagree with you there Slug... here's a quote from a Brit pariliament member courtesy or Moonworld.

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What’s so interesting about it, it’s a very low-level attack, if you know what I mean, in technological terms. It’s not like the complexity of 9/11, where the planes, where people to entrain to fly and all the rest of it. This is just the suicide bombing of the kind you read about every day in the Middle East all over the world.


I don't know personally. It's terrible, whoever did it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2005 7:09 pm 
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Low level tech doesn't mean low level organisation. You don't setup 4 simultaneous bombings in London with amateurs. 9/11 is an extreme exemple but overall terrorists use whatever they can grab, not really what they would like to use.
Some military grade equipment is just too bulky to go unnoticed, or requires a very proficient tech to assemble again. Guess why all the guys still use Kalachnikovs and not more modern rifles: no maintenance needed.
I didn't go to the army, but friends of mine told me that assembling a FAMAS from scratch was a nightmare with the lights off.

(All of this is only my opinion, however ;) )

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 6:11 pm 
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Another stupid senseless act performed by a bunch of cowardly idiots who have the mental capacity below that of wild monkeys and have no purpose but to harm the people they envy.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:10 pm 
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Erime S'erolf wrote:
Another stupid senseless act performed by a bunch of cowardly idiots who have the mental capacity below that of wild monkeys and have no purpose but to harm the people they envy.


I hesitate to post this as I don't want it taken the wrong way but, the very worst thing we can do is underestimate a terrorists intellegence or vigor. If 9/11 taught us anything it is that terrorists are very smart and (believe it or not) far from cowardly.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2005 11:27 pm 
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iJasonT wrote:
Erime S'erolf wrote:
Another stupid senseless act performed by a bunch of cowardly idiots who have the mental capacity below that of wild monkeys and have no purpose but to harm the people they envy.


I hesitate to post this as I don't want it taken the wrong way but, the very worst thing we can do is underestimate a terrorists intellegence or vigor. If 9/11 taught us anything it is that terrorists are very smart and (believe it or not) far from cowardly.
You've got a point there. These guys, and many other terrorists, are smart and quite ballsy. They just have a horribly wrong perception of what is "right."

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:14 am 
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I can happily say that, as a terror attack, it can be considered to have failed. Minus the obvious immediate effect (and my sympathies go to those families) London is now back to normality. And, if anything, we are now more vigilant than we were before, so it probably had the opposite to the intented effect!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 4:23 am 
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Honestly I think that goes for all Terrorist attacks. They (the attacks) do nothing but bring a short term since of 'accomplishment' (note the quotes) to the terrorist. Other than that they serve only to really really piss people off and that usually ends with the 'targets' of the attacks opening a big-ol-can of Whoop ass down upon their attackers.

Seems like a stupid practice really, hmm maybe Erime was right :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:34 am 
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iJasonT wrote:
Honestly I think that goes for all Terrorist attacks. They (the attacks) do nothing but bring a short term since of 'accomplishment' (note the quotes) to the terrorist. Other than that they serve only to really really piss people off and that usually ends with the 'targets' of the attacks opening a big-ol-can of Whoop ass down upon their attackers.


Hell, yeah!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:38 am 
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In my opinion, success for them (terrorist) is for their actions to have negative effects that last a long time. Shutting down the world’s stock markets, destroying people’s confidence in methods of transportation, fracturing/halting a government by being a catalyst for polar infighting.

The fact that the tube, and the London market were not shut down for any extended period of time was a blow against the terrorist. The fact that markets rallied in the face of the attack, I think, was a counter attack of our own. A bluffing if you will, like no matter what they do, we are going to do the opposite of what they want.

This terror stuff is mind games. They want to scare us into submission. So our defense, besides going on the offence, would be to bluff and make them think that their actions have no effect on us. Surely another 911 style/magnitude attack, if successful will stop the markets again… but in the face of this small stuff we would like to bluff and make them think their efforts were for nill. London did a great job of being defiant in the face of terror. If I was a terrorist, London showed me that they are not going to scare so easily…. I would need a bigger bang if I want to scare them.

All this being said, I think the brunt of the damage 911 did to the US is only starting to be seen today. We fixed all the physical damage, yet the true damage was making terror and how we fight it the catalyst for political infighting. Now that the post terror honeymoon is over, the US government is virtually hogtied. Both sides are hell-bent on Hating the other side. They don’t just dislike each other any more, they HATE each other. I predict this will be the climax of the US’s power. A long time ago a history teacher told me that all great nations climax, and then over time fade away. The Roman’s did it, so did the Spanish, French, and English. I fear that the US, as the only allied superpower, is on its way down…. Just as China and others are on their way up.

Here is the kicker. Do you think UBL and others knew that their attack would have such far reaching damage to us? Were they smoking Hashish all the while figuring out the one blow to start the US downfall? Or did they just hit a fly ball, and we subconsciously tipped it over the fence for a home run? I don’t think terrorist are that smart. Tactically, I believe they may be very smart… or at least I belong to the sect that never underestimates the enemy. But the ability to destroy a nation with one shot is some Davinci type brains. I don’t think the terrorist are at that level. So I guess in many ways I think we are destroying our own nation.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:43 am 
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Cyrus, I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis of 911. I am not an American, yet it makes me sad to see how things turned politically after 911 and what a great chance for a long-lasting Pax Americana was wasted.

I do hope that this was not the peak of US power, because I still think the USA is the best option out of all the current superpowers / superpower wannabes. I beleive that a good anti-terrorist policy that will be firm , yet acceptable for everybody will be found.

Of course, if it was up to me, I'd like the Dutch or the Swedish or someone similar to rule the world :) (I am neither Dutch nor Swedish)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:43 am 
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Well, not knowing UBL personnally i can't tell if he's a strategy genius or not.

I seem to remember the twin towers were not planned to collapse, as UBL or one of his cronies said in a communiqué. The "W can hit you and hurt you" intended message became "See the symbol of America crashing to the ground".

Personnally, I'd think that, although his intelligence is misplaced to say the least, UBL has to be if not intelligent, at least a cunning leader. He has enlisted people to his name, evaded worldwide research warrants for some time now, and has become the public enemy and achieved things lots of other terrorists dream of.

To explain how extremist muslims (Do i have to repeat these are extremist muslims and not just "muslims"? ;) ) rely on war and murder to push their conception of the world, one must have some understanding of Islam and its birth and subsequent expansion. To sum up, Islam extended at the beginning through war on the infidels, the animist tribes of Arabia and neighboring kingdoms/nations.

UBL reads th eCoran as Catholics read the Bible in the 1400s: absolute truth to be held as universal law. Combined with a very conservative reading...

(Off topic)Arabic is a very complex and subtle language that allows for many interpretations: one exemple is that a thief should have his hand cut: It can be interpreted as "severing his hand from his arm" or "Cut his hand so the mark left on it will show him for a thief and warn others". A "mere" branding was, at the times, a very benign punishment for a thief. Do not forget that the Arab culture was leading in many intellectual studies at the time, they invented the zero and we still use their numbers... (End of off topic)

it leads to a medieval-like vision of the world that naturally comes at odds with what we consider as the gains of civilisation and culture, suh as free speech, freedom of movement and religion, and man/woman being on equal ground.

To come to a society of old times, UBL resorts to the weapons of old times: war, with whatever means he can manage.

All this to say that UBL is probably not a madman: he only has a misplaced set of ethics, at odds with ours.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 3:03 pm 
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Not going to say much else on this, because it's turning too political and too religious here. BUT.. did want to point out a misconception.

Quote:
UBL reads th eCoran as Catholics read the Bible in the 1400s: absolute truth to be held as universal law. Combined with a very conservative reading...


The analogy you're using here does not work, because it was not a literal and/or conservative reading of the Bible that led to the crusades and the inquisition, as I believe you're referring to. The issue at hand there, was an extremely corrupted Church, which took the word of the clergy without regard to scripture.

I personally ascribe to a very conservative interpretation of scripture, and also view it as absolute truth, and believe it to be universal law. I do not however, see anywhere or anything in Scripture that would support burning heretics at the stake, or physically persecuting those who ascribe to a different religion. These actions were the result of giving too much power to the Papacy, and the Church itself actually purposely KEPT the scriptures out of the hands of the common people. As I said though, it's getting entirely too political, and religious for these forums here, but send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this type of thing, or join us over at Moon's site here: http://www.moonworld.co.uk/forum/ :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:16 pm 
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Romsuiag wrote:
iJasonT wrote:
Erime S'erolf wrote:
Another stupid senseless act performed by a bunch of cowardly idiots who have the mental capacity below that of wild monkeys and have no purpose but to harm the people they envy.


I hesitate to post this as I don't want it taken the wrong way but, the very worst thing we can do is underestimate a terrorists intellegence or vigor. If 9/11 taught us anything it is that terrorists are very smart and (believe it or not) far from cowardly.
You've got a point there. These guys, and many other terrorists, are smart and quite ballsy. They just have a horribly wrong perception of what is "right."


I still think I hit them right on the button. I am not empressed at all by anything they are and do not believe themselves to be 'smart'. Nor will I ever give them any credit for anything they come up with to kill people nor will I ever concider them 'ballsy'. You want ballsy, look at the names of the firefighters and police/rescue individuals that walked up that building knowing they probably would never come down...but still did it, and never returned. I did leave out one thing though, the coward terrorists can 'function' only because they are backed by rich and powerful cowardly idiots who have the mental capacity below that of wild monkeys and have no purpose but to harm the people they envy.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 4:32 am 
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Back to the point in hand (the fact that London was bombed and not the political reasoning behind it etc.), is it true that Americans have been advised not to come to the UK at all, or just London?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 7:43 am 
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I heard you guys were hot on their trail. TV over here says you have a few names (I cant remember them). I would guess the names belonged to possible high level planners and not the grunts, but that is just me guessing.

They say unlike the US, you guys have a domestic terrorist agency, and they have been tracking several potential terrorist for quite some time. In addition they say surveillance in London is huge, the average Londoner is filmed something like 300 times a day, so you guys are well equipped for getting good leads.

As far as not visiting, I have heard nothing of the sort. I would guess the only danger over there would be getting myself mauled by people who blame us. Even then I double those types outnumber the friendlier types.

For my dollar, I would guess the London danger has passed. If the terrorist want to scare the shit out of people, they would have hit again. Because they did not, I think they did all that they are capable of doing, and they are now hiding for their lives. Therefore I would now guess London is the safest city on the planet, while all other cities could be next.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 12:15 pm 
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Something to remember,
before 9/11 the Trade Towers where bombed via a bomb in a van. Many say that was just a test so the area and security reactions. Im not a fear monger but it may be something to notice.

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From what I've read AF and Navy personnel stationed in England or around London were advised to avoid the downtwon part of the city. That has since been lifted, but it did cause a bit of indignation amongst the Brits.

I can see it both ways...

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I work for ABN Amro (a world bank) and all business trips to London have been cancelled until further notice. Not sure if this is wide spread though.


As far as the terrorists themselves, I think the consensus here has been right. Terrorism is not about defeating a side through casualties, it is about creating chaos and fear enough to eventually topple an enemy. What 9/11 hopefully taught us is that we need to think clearly and calmly about our actions even in the face of terrible acts that demand a response, because the second we jump to conclusions and lose our ability to make rational decisions, the terrorists gain a victory.

What we see now is a very heated internal struggle in the US, one that will be difficult to remedy. Had there not been a 9/11, there would not been as great damage to the economy, there would not have been tough decisions forced upon our governement, etc. and the country would not be as split as it is today. I believe the terrorists' attacks in London were trying to be the catalyst for the same outcome in the UK (it looks like they've failed).

As much as I hate to admit it, the attacks on 9/11 were devastating to the US not just because they were horrible, but tactically, they were severely damaging to the US. A lot of people fail to realize this and blame it on the government's or the citiziens' decisions/attitudes in the aftermath. But if you trace it all back...no 9/11, probably no war, no recession, etc (which is debatable, but obviously very merit worthy). When you realize this, and perhaps give the same motive to the London attacks, you understand that the terrorists' leadership is not a bunch of moronic monkeys with a lot of firepower, but actually very tactically intelligent and steadfast in their ideals, however different they are.

There is no way to justify the attacks of the terrorists, but they truly believe that war has been waged upon them by the US, UK, etc. And in my opinion, I think they know they have no way of winning a face-to-face war with an army. What other way to defend themselves do they have besides the hopes that if they attack the nation through terror, they will force them out of their country?

If an alien race came to the US, placed their army amidst our culture and demanded/forced us to change to their way of life, would you not defend yourself in any way you could to drive them back? You might think this is a strange analogy, but really it isn't all that far from the situation at hand, especially in the eyes of the terrorists. We (the allies) have entered their domain of thousands of years uninvited and unwelcomed, to introduce a completely alien culture, however just our presence is.

Please, don't read that as a defense to the terrorists. I just don't like people thinking that these people are not human beings. They are scared and feel as though they have been backed into a wall. Somewhere along the line, they snapped. People are capable of horrible things, especially when threatened.

Honestly, I don't hate them, I pity them. It's hard to accept change, even when it's a change for the better, especially unwelcomed change. Their incredible resolve obviously means there would be a reaction. And this is what has happened. It is something we must accept, and, I believe, we must meet with compassion, not aggression (for the dark side aggression is...sorry).

Civil Rights is an amazing example. People didn't want to change, and horrible atrocities were the result. But leaders of the movement were so determined, and using non-violent acts, rational ideas, and calm conviction we succeeded as a nation and became better. I think we must do that here.

I know I've exhausted analogies, but I'll give you one more. How would you approach a scared child you find in an alley on the street that is threatened by you? Run up with a mean look and a gun? Or slowly approach with your arms open and a smile?


I believe in all sincererity we will find those responsible. And no matter what your views are on how things have turned out or how the whole situation has been handled, one thing is very clear: We are there with good intentions and hope to bring our success with us. And if we've learned anything, it's that good usually triumphs.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2005 8:58 pm 
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I suggest that once the new BOD is formed... they think about whether we want to have the Politics/Religion/PvP message board set up.

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Cyrus Rex wrote:
I heard you guys were hot on their trail. TV over here says you have a few names (I cant remember them). I would guess the names belonged to possible high level planners and not the grunts, but that is just me guessing.
We seem to be making a fair bit of progress, I heard that there were quite a number of arrests in Yorkshire yesterday. I'll find out more when I look up the news in a few minutes.

Cyrus Rex wrote:
They say unlike the US, you guys have a domestic terrorist agency, and they have been tracking several potential terrorist for quite some time. In addition they say surveillance in London is huge, the average Londoner is filmed something like 300 times a day, so you guys are well equipped for getting good leads.
We have MI5, which is probably what you are referring to but I had assumed that was our equivalent of the FBI. We also have MI6 which is our "secret service" (of James Bond fame!), which supposedly "doesn't exist"!

ExarKun809 wrote:
I believe the terrorists' attacks in London were trying to be the catalyst for the same outcome in the UK (it looks like they've failed).
Relating to this and Cyrus's comments above, you should bear in mind that London has been suffering terrorist attacks for many years. Even I remember (though I was quite young at the time) a time when IRA bombings in London were a regular occurance, so we're quite well prepared!

bigyak wrote:
I suggest that once the new BOD is formed... they think about whether we want to have the Politics/Religion/PvP message board set up.
I have to say I'm impressed with the civilised manner in which this has been discussed here (just don't let Talon say any more! :P)


EDIT: Just checked the news. Looks like the bombers were British-born, muslim extremists. It is reported that at least three of the four bombers died in the explosions. 11 of the dead have been formally identified.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:48 am 
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Q&A session with some interesting information

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just don't let Talon say any more!


:x heaven forbid I should correct people in their understanding of history.
:P :wink:

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Talon1977 wrote:
I personally ascribe to a very conservative interpretation of scripture, and also view it as absolute truth, and believe it to be universal law. I do not however, see anywhere or anything in Scripture that would support burning heretics at the stake, or physically persecuting those who ascribe to a different religion. These actions were the result of giving too much power to the Papacy, and the Church itself actually purposely KEPT the scriptures out of the hands of the common people. As I said though, it's getting entirely too political, and religious for these forums here, but send me a PM if you'd like to discuss this type of thing, or join us over at Moon's site here: http://www.moonworld.co.uk/forum/ :wink:


Which scripture though? I can't read Hebrew so I can't say I've really ever read any scripture. The King James version of the bible that a massive majority of Christians read was retranslated and reinterpreted from an even earlier version which was still not the original version of the bible. It added things like an interpretation that it was ok to burn witches. Running stuff through Babelfish a few times (which doesn't have any politcal interests, and even though it far less sophisticated than a language scholar) should show you translation is dicey.

I don't think the 9/11 hijackers or other terrorists to be cowards I just don't believe they are paricularly brave or "ballsy" either. I think many of them are near brainwashed. It isn't certain all of them even knew they were going to die. Only the pilots needed to know that. It takes far more courage to stay around and fight for what you believe in.

If the Germans couldn't bomb London or the UK into submission the terrorists NEVER will. I know that for certain. People are naturally stubborn and contrary, the Brits even more so.

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Quote:
If the Germans couldn't bomb London or the UK into submission the terrorists NEVER will. I know that for certain. People are naturally stubborn and contrary, the Brits even more so.


No joke, When I see movies, or documentaries that show the place after all the bombing, I find it hard to believe people were living under all that rubble. WWII carpet bombing / fire bombing has got to be the worst. I think I would have just thrown my hands in the air and build a new city elsewhere. :wink:


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The Japanese are some of the most traditional, loyal, set in their way people. The surrendered after two bombings.

There is an interesting debate to be had there, Im just not in the mood to type it out.

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iJasonT wrote:
The Japanese are some of the most traditional, loyal, set in their way people. The surrendered after two bombings.

There is an interesting debate to be had there, Im just not in the mood to type it out.


The Japanese only surrendered after four years of brutal pounding. They had no allies left, no hope of stopping an invasion and no navy remaining. The two cataclysmic explosions only brought home the futility of continuing. The Brits did still have friends in 1940, they had the most powerful navy on earth and 30 miles of ocean protecting them. It's not really a fair comparison.

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tobiasds wrote:
iJasonT wrote:
The Japanese are some of the most traditional, loyal, set in their way people. The surrendered after two bombings.

There is an interesting debate to be had there, Im just not in the mood to type it out.


The Japanese only surrendered after four years of brutal pounding. They had no allies left, no hope of stopping an invasion and no navy remaining. The two cataclysmic explosions only brought home the futility of continuing. The Brits did still have friends in 1940, they had the most powerful navy on earth and 30 miles of ocean protecting them. It's not really a fair comparison.
By my understanding, Japan had actually lost by the time those bombs were dropped. They simply added a sence of finality to it.


tobiasds wrote:
If the Germans couldn't bomb London or the UK into submission the terrorists NEVER will. I know that for certain. People are naturally stubborn and contrary, the Brits even more so.
You wouldn't believe how satisfying it is to have a non-Brit say that!


Cyrus Rex wrote:
No joke, When I see movies, or documentaries that show the place after all the bombing, I find it hard to believe people were living under all that rubble. WWII carpet bombing / fire bombing has got to be the worst. I think I would have just thrown my hands in the air and build a new city elsewhere.
By the time of the Blitz, a lot of London had been evacuated. The people remaining were well versed in air raid drill! That reminds me of a lovely scene from the Battle of Britain where a British pilot had bailed out and landed in someone's greenhouse, a young boy ran out to him and offered a cigar, "Thanks awfully ol' chap!"!


Talon1977 wrote:
heaven forbid I should correct people in their understanding of history.
Some people don't like their history corrected! :P And a lot depends on point of view! :P

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