Avian Gamers Network

Ok. So this hasn't been pushed for a long time primarily because most of us have just been treating Avian as one more forum to jump in and talk with friends occasionally. But, alas, it seems like we may have interest in getting back into the Guild business.

So let's get this moving and make some decisions.

Do we want to "reactivate" Avian as a Guild?
Do we want to specialize in certain types of games, or just keep it general?
Do we want to start recruiting?

I think if we take this casually all we'll be doing is using the Defibrilator to shock the heart once and hope it takes. Not a great way to restart something.

_________________
"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

DDO - Cannith - AlistairItor - Rogue/Ranger (5/3) - Main
DDO - Cannith - Guijanitor - Paladin/Rogue (4/1)
DDO - Cannith - RicochetItor - Rogue (5)

Good question. I don't have a good answer. Or maybe even any answer.

I don't know how much time I'm actually going to have to devote to gaming, or being involved in a guild. There aren't too many of us that are actually active on the forums at this point. We may have a few more active in various games, but I'm guessing our total "active" members can be easily counted without removing shoes.

To begin to answer your questions, we may need to add a few more:

4.) If we become active again, what kind of structure will we utilize? (BoD/Tyrant/Obo?)
5.) If we become active again, who will be our leaders?



In my thinking, I don't know that Avian can ever become a dominant force in any MMO. We had a good shot with SWG, simply because it was organized to be very crafter friendly, and that was something we excelled at. We wanted to play that way, we thought a lot about it, and we were organized.

We simply don't have the numbers, and didn't even when we were still going strong in early WoW, to compete with the big guilds, accomplish a whole lot in raids, etc, and be a destination for people who are really into playing games. For all the time we put into Avian, and how dedicated we were, we somehow fell into being a casual guild. We were never able to replicate the drive and the effort of those first weeks and months in SWG with building the guild hall, building the city deed, etc.

I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. I don't have the time to be really involved in a big power guild. I'd be at best on the fringes, trying to keep track of what we've got going on and not being lost in the shuffle. It is kinda nice being in a small group of friends who help each other.

Ironically enough, I could probably put in ~40 hours/week on the forums (working on a NOC, but no actual gaming access). I'll definitely help out any way I can with whatever direction we decide to go. I think we should try and get in touch with a lot of our former members and see if they are interested in coming back at all, especially for SWTOR. If we get a few people back, and we can have a viable guild, even a small one, then I think it'd be great to be back with Avian. If not, we can always do our own things and join another, bigger guild in-game, and still keep in touch here.

I suppose all of this will depend on what everyone else thinks. For me:

1.) Yes, we should reactivate Avian as a guild, specifically in SWTOR.

2.) Lets just keep in general for now, and see how things go, who's interested in coming back, etc.

3.) Not yet. Again, lets wait and see who'll show up as things get closer. It was a lot of fun planning for SWG, but I'm not nearly as interested in going through all of that again without a lot of first hand knowledge of the game.

4.) I have no idea for the structure. I think the BoD was an awesome idea that had a lot of potential for SWG, not so much for just about everything else. It was designed to work similarly to a Board of Directors for an enterprise, and there were lots of supporting in-game mechanics that could be used in SWG. It requires a large number of people intimately involved, and it really only works to organize a very large player base. Something much more simple is probably called for, if not flat-out required this time around.

5.) This one again kinda depends on who shows up, and concrete decisions don't need to be made until we're ready for a game to launch or have an active presence in. I think we can play it by ear here.


All of this means, however, that any restart is going to be a very slow process. I guess we need to see about collecting contact info for folks.

_________________
Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God!

Gui has always been on the leading edge of things. I welcome your efforts to begin putting something together. For me, as a member, I need a direction to get behind. If you have a direction in mind, and a game I want to be part of, I can get behind you.

1) Do we want to "reactivate" Avian as a Guild?
Sure.... For what game? The way I see it is we need to identify a game, get members interested, establish an Avian wing, choose some wing leaders, recruit and grow as necessary.

2) Do we want to specialize in certain types of games, or just keep it general?
I am not sure. We are all about MMOs, but with the MMO lull our members have dabbled in various games. We have some still in EVE, WOW, and others. I like a stronger guild presence to keep me engaged, but we don’t have a strong game at the moment.

3) Do we want to start recruiting?
For what game? If you have the game, and member support, and leaders, and organization..... then begin recruiting. I think we need to establish member support, leaders, and organization to retain new members otherwise without the first parts we will just create a revolving door.

4.) If we become active again, what kind of structure will we utilize? (BoD/Tyrant/Obo?)
Depends on the game. BOD worked for SWG for the reasons Cetera mentioned. Not sure if the new game will lend its self to BOD. SOA worked well without a BOD, it was just members with passion leading the way. It all boils down to how many people want to get involved with the leadership, and how to best utilize those people. A lot of people may lend itself to larger leadership structure.

5.) If we become active again, who will be our leaders?
Not me. My ideas are stale; I think we need new blood, or someone with more passion than I currently possess. I will gladly help and get involved, but I think out leadership needs better ideas than I possess, maybe even experience with other guilds to bring new ideas and take us to the next level of fun.


** On another note, I am in Kandahar. No gaming for me until I am back in civilization. 14-16 hour workdays, no days off, lousy internet connections, and rockets raining down on us do not make for good gaming environment. On the positive side if we do a developer care package I will have tons of money to donate. And I do have ample time to support the guild from work, just no game play.

Funny this...

I am currently trying to get all my characters in WoW back into the in game Avian, just working on timing it with the one other person still in the guild actively (well, Roclar is too, but anyway).

It would all depend on getting a decent number of people playing any particular game. My new gaming rig should arrive on Thursday, so any game for the next 4 years, I should be good to go. The new machine is an Alienware BEAST. I am sooooo looking forward to it.

I am "playing" WoW and LOTRO since it went F2P, and plan on getting the WoW Cata Expansion. I am still a bit unsure about SWTOR... I just have a bad feeling it will be a HUGE dissappointment. But thats just me. If there is a decent sized group of old timers who want to give a specific game a run, I am all for it. I play games for the people, not really the game, so I could probably be talked into about anything.

_________________
SW:TOR - Mantison Gunslinger, Ironmant Trooper, Manni Jedi Knight
WoW - Dalaran - Manni 85 Mage, Ironmant 83 Warrior, Mantison 80 Hunter
SWG - Chilastra Retired Mantison, Commando / TKA Master aka Trogdor !!!!

So, I meant to respond immediately after posting but silly work got in the way. At least now I can add in my responses to other ideas/questions here.


1) Do we want to "reactivate" Avian as a Guild?
I am 100% for activating Avian as a Player Association again, and more specifically as a Guild. I think it's time to start a Guild Wing for SWTOR in preparation for that games final stages of development and then release. Blur has had his guild in place for over a year now, so they will be a great resource of information, and a solid out-of-game ally. In-game may be a different issue depending on where we go with our Guild. I also think we should look at the Free-2-Play movement and decide what we may want to do there. I've been playing DDO pretty regularly for a while now and it's definitely a fun game. LOTRO and EQII having free models, as well as some other already established games like Runes of Magic offer a lot of oportunities for people to group and play for free, removing the barrier of entry almost completely.

2) Do we want to specialize in certain types of games, or just keep it general?
I think we should be open to any social games, however if we are really going to get life pumped back into Avian we need to stay focused on a few core games, with SWTOR probably being the Flagship.

3) Do we want to start recruiting?
I think we should actively recruit for any Live game we move into, and we should also do some selective recruiting for SWTOR as well once we determine our most likely focus for the game.

4) What kind of structure should we utilize?
This is a really tough question for me. I have issues with the last structure we utilized and believe it bred the complacency that kept Avian from staying active. I believe the PA needs a ruling council, and that each Wing should have control over themselves, however I do not believe that the Wings should automatically have a say in the overall PA decisions. I think that was a flawed concept that kept us from moving things forward.

5) Who will be our leaders?
Obviously, as always, I would want to be involved in some degree in the leadership of the PA as a whole. But to me that's less important than getting this bird back in the air.

As far as SWTOR goes, TCO seems to have a decent number of members interested now, blur formed Beskar as a Mandalorian Guild, and a handful of people in Scomplink are keeping an eye on this as well. I think this game will definitely start big, and if BioWare doesn't completely screw up I think this game will last a long time.

_________________
"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

DDO - Cannith - AlistairItor - Rogue/Ranger (5/3) - Main
DDO - Cannith - Guijanitor - Paladin/Rogue (4/1)
DDO - Cannith - RicochetItor - Rogue (5)

Manni,

I actually started playing WoW again in July with a 2 month membership, then after a couple of weeks they locked my account stating that I owed them money, which I didn't but was probably the result of when my account got hacked. They still haven't resolved it. Anyway, when I looked at the Guild I noticed NOBODY had logged into WoW from our guild in at least 3 months. I felt kinda sad....

ON to LOTRO. I still haven't been able to get the install to work. Getting pretty frustrated. I'm probably going to have to wipe all the install files and try a reinstall from a wired connection.
How do you like it? What do you think your long-term prospects are for it?

_________________
"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

DDO - Cannith - AlistairItor - Rogue/Ranger (5/3) - Main
DDO - Cannith - Guijanitor - Paladin/Rogue (4/1)
DDO - Cannith - RicochetItor - Rogue (5)

I have been part of this group for over nine years now. More than half of that, I haven't been playing any MMOs. For me this guild has always been this community here, rather than any particular guild we've had in any particular game. Bar holidays, I read these forums every day and will likely continue doing so until the ghastly day that they disappear. So for Avian to be active again, I'd like to see these boards active again. There was always plenty of discussion going on, not just about the various games, but on a whole multitude of topics.

So:
1) Definitely yes.
2) Keep it general, but with one or two flagships. I'd like to see cross-pollination going on too and general chatter in the forums.
3) We need to bring back an active base first.
4) Well, for obvious reasons, I'm still quite partial to the old BoD system. It had a lot going for it and the elections always added a bit of a talking point. Getting the right balance between in-game and out-of-game leadership is important though. You don't want leaders who only want to spend time in game and couldn't care less about the community as a whole. Equally, you don't want a body that controls all in game aspect from discussions in the government forums.
5) For the moment, inspirational people, who will start getting people motivated in the community again. After that, run some charismatic election campaigns!

_________________
X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)

In reality, I won't play any game long term unless I find a solid group of folks to play with.

LOTRO is entertaining for now, but its nothing different from every other MMO out there. If a group of folks make an appearance for "long term" in a game, I will probably get it, as the relatively minor expense of picking up a game and a monthly fee is not an issue for me now. So, I will keep in the loop, and hop on whatever looks to have a good base of folks to play with.

_________________
SW:TOR - Mantison Gunslinger, Ironmant Trooper, Manni Jedi Knight
WoW - Dalaran - Manni 85 Mage, Ironmant 83 Warrior, Mantison 80 Hunter
SWG - Chilastra Retired Mantison, Commando / TKA Master aka Trogdor !!!!

Too much to comment on for the little time I have to post right now but in short:

1. Yes I am in favor of reviving an Avian guild.
2. I think is makes sense to get an Avian SWTOR wing going. The game may be a bust but I would think there are a good number of Avians at least interested in trying it. If the game flops, it flops. But at least Avians would have common folk to game with while it lasts. (Though I truly hope it kicks ass).
3. Not sure what form leadership should take. Need to ponder.

_________________
"I built me a bomb and dropped it on every MFer who got in my way!"

Good stuff. Thanks, as always, for your leadership MGJ.

1) Do we want to "reactivate" Avian as a Guild?
Absolutely. I love this group, and it saddens me to see it in decline. But it's nothing that a little boost and facelift couldn't fix.

2) Do we want to specialize in certain types of games, or just keep it general?
I think keeping it as a Gamers Guild, in general, is a better idea than picking a game and going gungho up to launch, seeing as so many games flop out of the gate and marketing gets more attention than design and functionality.

3) Do we want to start recruiting?
I agree, that in-game friendship building needs to be done, with an aim to recruit, yes. But lets remember what we're about. Fairly mature-minded gamers and not little kids running around causing trouble.

4) What kind of structure should we utilize?
I think until it grows much larger, a guiding council, similar to the Founders, should be put back into place. And we can go from there. Maybe we could appoint "champions" of certain things like recruiting. Just recognizing some people for their gifts and efforts.

5) Who will be our leaders?
Am I technically still President of this boat? I can't remember if I was ever impeached or not. LOL!


Here's my idea... we should focus the guild on creating a night of the week for different scheduled casual game nights for different games. WoW Night on tuesdays, LOTRO drop in on thursdays.. whatever. We can utilize a simple calendar widget on google or something and appoint one or two people to keep it updated.

I would also like to see these nights involve events for console gamers. We've got quite a few here who play games online like Call of Duty and HALO on the 360 and Playstation. It's really fun to run around killing people you know. And I think it's easier to recruit there too.

_________________
"Perhaps the sentiments contained in the following pages, are not yet sufficiently fashionable to procure them general favor; a long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right, and raises at first a formidable outcry in defence of custom. But the tumult soon subsides." - Thomas Paine, Common Sense

Most activity in weeks...hehe I had a longer post but I culled it a bit. I think this is already to long of post.

TL;DR - Everything, everyone else has said is dead on.

For myself I think there is a critical mass that you need to approach for a game to be fun and compelling as a guild environment. This mass needs to be met for people to keep coming back on - there is no fun in logging on to an empty guild and this causes people who are not forum members to quickly lose interest and move away from us and causes me to suffer from a lack of attention to that particular game after awhile (too many new shiny things).

We are not a hardcore raiding guild with login requirements and raid reqs, we are definitely casual.

We should be honest about this, we will find people with families and other priorities that will be okay in this mature and casual environment that still has expectations of it's members. We will also find 13 year olds who are mature enough to desire the same things - and move our harvesters while were at work.

Do we want to "reactivate" Avian as a Guild?
I would like to, I am not sure how we go about it - part of me thinks we may need a bit of a fresh start - new blood, a culling of the active members of this board or some such... At the moment the board feels weighed down by history with no real direction.

Do we want to specialize in certain types of games, or just keep it general?
We need a flagship game. Without one it leads to inactivity and fragmentation as a group and it seems contagious. MMO's require such an investment of time/money, it is hard to get really into one without the support and smaller groups in them tend to fold quickly.

I would throw out LOTRO (F2P), Guild Wars 2 (2011 release, no monthly fee but still a MMO style game), SWTOR as all candidates for reviving ourselves. - my only concern with SWTOR is I would expect people to have to choose a side in the conflict and the PA could not be neutral as we once were.

Smaller communities devoted to FPS or other games with co-op/multiplayer may be advantageous for members of the community as well - but I think first and foremost it is the MMO that would bring people in and then also feed the smaller groups. FPS etc... tend to be FOTM that leads to high turnover and a lot of people not feeling like they can keep up with the newest launch...

Could always go back to SWG EMU...or Eve.

Do we want to start recruiting?
We would have to. New blood gets us old timers moving... We would obviously need to re-design the web page to make it more inviting.

If we become active again, what kind of structure will we utilize?
The BoD worked best pre-release and even post release to a degree. The game was large enough, our group was large enough to sustain that leadership type and size. Post launch we slowly became less active (as a BoD) things took longer to take care of etc...

It depends on the number of people who want to get involved, but a smaller more streamlined system would probably end up working out the best and preventing too much politicization of the whole thing. Enough that we can have people being only as involved in running things as they have time, and people can specialize a bit.

If we become active again, who will be our leaders?
I would definitely be up for being involved in both planning and implementation.

I would definitely like to know Obo's thoughts as to his involvement, as it stands he manages the backend and pays for, well, everything for the better part of 9 years now.
---------
For now I would suggest a new forum where we can compile information about SWTOR in an easy to find location. I fear though that atm they are less open then SWG was (to SWG's downfall unfortunately as they did not meet expectations they created). Is SWTOR still Q1/2 2011 or has it been pushed?

_________________
Ryric Krael
Former Vice President AGN
Former Director, Section 6
Former Head of Department of the Treasury
-------
Ask not what your PA can do for you, but what you can do for your PA
"Gone Section Five"

Good post DF. I agree with most of what you say. Best to keep the leadership structure simple and efficient.

I think that since we were initially drawn to Avian with a love for Star Wars, and desire to play an MMO together that SWTOR be the game that could best reunite us. Having 2 "factions" may cause some issues but I'd expect a vote to be able to settle that. I for one would like to play the game with friends and even if the selected faction is not the one I first want to try (dark side FTW!), I'd still play the good guy side if it meant playing with Avians.

LoTRO would be my vote for a secondary "flagship" title. Its free (yay!), and I think could easily be played casually from what I have read about it.

As far as I know, SWTOR is still set for a spring 2011 launch.

_________________
"I built me a bomb and dropped it on every MFer who got in my way!"

Ok. So there is a lot of agreement here on structure, as well as similar ideas on where we should head.

I think considering our size at the moment we need to pair this down, and kind of start working from the ground up. I recommend we start with just a Board of Directors, like we had prior to SWG launching. Probably start with a 3 or 5 member BoD, and make decisions from there on Guild structure (i.e. do we bring back the Sections, or do we instigate a new voting procedure that doesn't rely on Section or Game membership) and how we handle the governing of individual games.

_________________
"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

DDO - Cannith - AlistairItor - Rogue/Ranger (5/3) - Main
DDO - Cannith - Guijanitor - Paladin/Rogue (4/1)
DDO - Cannith - RicochetItor - Rogue (5)

I vote to impeach now, anyone second?

_________________
~Ravage™
~I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
~The problem with facts, is that sometimes they don't support your opinion.

All this discussion has had me looking back at all the work we did on the charter all those years ago. Some of our main principles that were first stated in that document are still relevant to this group today.

I think I'd find it rather intriguing to fish out all the old stuff and have another crack at it for the current situation!

The other thing I'd be interested in doing is writing up some sort of plotted history of Avian. We have a lot of history and traditions (and being often a grand defender of those, I should know!) that it would be worth portraying somewhere.

_________________
X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)

Wait, is this related to that incident with Talon, "Monica" Tulowitzki and the Purple Dress?

If so I'm going to have to second.

_________________
"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

DDO - Cannith - AlistairItor - Rogue/Ranger (5/3) - Main
DDO - Cannith - Guijanitor - Paladin/Rogue (4/1)
DDO - Cannith - RicochetItor - Rogue (5)

Do you want to start a thread for gathering that information in the Private Members forum? That would be great information to have internally, and it would make a great basis for an abridged version to be placed on our main page.......if we ever get one back.

_________________
"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

DDO - Cannith - AlistairItor - Rogue/Ranger (5/3) - Main
DDO - Cannith - Guijanitor - Paladin/Rogue (4/1)
DDO - Cannith - RicochetItor - Rogue (5)

The Charter, the history .... or both?


The Charter is fairly easy as the threads are still there in the forum (albeit the last post being early 2004!). I can pick out the various versions and dump them in a new thread for perusal (by-the-by I think the charter has gone through 4 iterations since Avian's beginning. More shocking is that I've had my hand in at least two of them!). Those versions, at the very least, would provide food for thought for the creation of a new charter and associated structure.

My main motive for the history is that any new charter will now, almost certainly, remove all mention of the Founders of Avian. It is well known that my opinion has always been to remember them in some form but I don't think it's appropriate any more for that remembrance to be in the Charter itself. Hence creating a history. Putting that together is going to be a bit more work as there'll be a lot more reliance on people's memories. However, it could be a fun exercise and, at the same time, give people something to post about.

So I'll start a thread on each in the Private Forum.


Another thing that would be useful, structure-wise, particularly for the likes of me who has had practically no involvement with the governing side of things for over 5 years now, would be for a comprehensive list of the forums we currently have here (again post in the private forum) as a lot of the older forums got merged into others and I don't know what's where any more.

_________________
X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)

can i suggest moving the discussion of structure to the private forum as well?



My only comment atm without getting to in depth is we need to consider the out of game and overall avian leadership and in-game leadership. Where we ran into problems last time is when the two became very disconnected. It is something to consider how the two will work together and overlap. The reason the structure worked during SWG is that it was one game, one focus.

And X2 I still have old chat logs, and copies of the charter etc from back in the day...somewhere on my external HD

_________________
Ryric Krael
Former Vice President AGN
Former Director, Section 6
Former Head of Department of the Treasury
-------
Ask not what your PA can do for you, but what you can do for your PA
"Gone Section Five"

Thanks MGJ for bringing up this debate.


Yeah, pretty much that.

1) Do we want to "reactivate" Avian as a Guild?
I don't follow MMO news a lot, but I think we should "re"activate the guild around SW:ToR because of the huge SW fanbase present here. I don't really see another game that could re-unite Avian.

2) Do we want to specialize in certain types of games, or just keep it general?
I'd like Avian to remain a PA, and not a guild for a specific game. Avians can be enlightening on a whole lot of subjects, and I wouldn't want that to disapear. I think it fits the Avians better.

3) Do we want to start recruiting?
Yeah, I think we should follow the same preparation we did for SWG for SW:ToR (well I wasn't here at the time but I read old posts when I joined). This should allow us to evaluate our potential player base, and prepare the guild better for the release.

4.) If we become active again, what kind of structure will we utilize? (BoD/Tyrant/Obo?)
To be honest, I don't really care. All Avians are responsible people, and so they will take responsible decisions, which I'll follow nearly blindly.

5.) If we become active again, who will be our leaders?
I have no idea...

Cheers

_________________
Flyoc,
Farm with attitude.

Ok I've started a couple of threads in the private forums. Go there for more in-depth discussion.

_________________
X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)

Man dont check for a little bit and alot of activity, more than I have time to read right now.

In short, I am still around and pretty active in WoW still. Interested in SWTOR along with Rob and I believe Deb as well.

Still hoping for more crafting info from SWTOR. I will be reading mroe probably at work tomorrow.

_________________
Section 6