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 Post subject: D&D: 4th Edition Review
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:12 pm 
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As promised, if a bit later than planned!

Let me start by explaining some of the background of how I got into D&D. It'll allow you to put into perspective some of the points I raise later on.

I was first introduce to D&D, and the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, through a little game called Baldur's Gate. This, I believe, followed the 2nd Edition AD&D rules. These rules seemed a little confusing at first (THAC0 anyone?) and there were a few aspects that didn't seem to make sense from a role-playing perspective. However, the story was very compelling and I spent a number of hours playing it. I played a Wizard. I went on and bought BGII (which, without a doubt, contains the most detailed and fleshed out characters I have ever seen in a computer game) and expansion packs for both. I moved from playing a wizard to playing a sorcerer.

Few years later, Neverwinter Nights, NWN, came along. This followed a slightly modified version of the 3rd Edition D&D rules. I got thoroughly confused that AC went from being the more negative the better to the more positive the better! But it seemed to be a more sensible system. Again it was based in the Realms setting and again, I played a wizard or sorcerer. By this point, my interest was sufficiently peaked that I went out and bought the core rule books (the current version at the time was 3.5 Edition so I got that) and the Realms setting guide. I now also have NWN2, which uses a modified version of 3.5 Edition rules.

Here comes the confession: I have never, ever played a game of tabletop D&D. So you may think it strange that I feel I am able to review the new rules. But I have experience at playing the computerised versions and I have a pretty good mathematical mind (I am an engineer after all) so I think I'm qualified to do so! But what you'll get is my opinion on the rules as displayed in the rule books, I'm not going to attempt to go into depth on how well it'll play around a table, because, frankly, I don't know. You can form your own opinions on that and a lot of it has to do with the DM anyway.

So lets get started. It should be noted at this point that, unless otherwise stated, comparisons are with respect to 3.5 Edition rules.

In general terms, it is a simpler system and, as such, the fact that is it balanced can be seen readily. However, despite this simpler setup the classes are also more diverse. I shall quantify these statements in the next few paragraphs.

The main difference is the creation of Power Source. They, for the time being, come in three forms: Arcane, Divine and Martial. The first two are what we would recognise as spells and prayers respectively. The Martial powers allow non-spellcasters to make more powerful hits occasionally, in the same manner that spellcasters can occasionally cast more powerful spells. This may sound silly, but consider the old feats that gave power attacks or cleaves, well this simply puts those, primarily martial, feats in a more appropriate place.

Leading on from these Power Sources are the powers themselves. These spells, prayers and exploits (the latter being what the Martial powers are called) are your character's attacks and active defences. They come in two types: attacks and utility; and three forms: At-will, Encounter and Daily. All forms of utility powers are lumped together until the collective title of utility powers. The attacks, however are separated. That's not very well explained so let me try a diagram:

At-Will Attack Powers
Encounter Attack Powers
Daily Attack Powers
Utility Powers
---At-Will
---Encounter
---Daily

Does that make it easier? Excellent!

These three forms, At-Will, Encounter and Daily, can be considered a new thing for D&D. However it's not really. Standard weapon attacks in previous editions could be considered At-Will and spells were always Daily. What I like about 4th Edition is that some spells can now be used At-Will. It would always annoy me that when a Wizard ran out of spells he became effectively useless or reduced to hitting in melee with his quarterstaff, making him very vulnerable. Even cantrips, the basic, party-trick magic, only had a finite supply. So it's great to see that 4th Edition has addressed that and a Wizard can now always use magic throughout the entire encounter. So, At-Will powers are those that can be used any time. Encounter powers can be used once per encounter and are replenished after a short rest (a sort of five minute breather). Daily powers can only be used once per day. These are far more powerful powers than either Encounter or At-Will powers. They are replenished after an extended rest (effectively a full night's sleep). Utility powers are enabling powers like healing or similar.

There is a new type of spell in 4th Edition that doesn't act like powers do in the sense that they're probably not effectively cast while in combat. These are called Rituals. They take a long time to prepare and a long time to cast. The effects generally aren't combat related. Things like scrying, enchanting items, portal creation, water breathing. The effects can last a long time (ie a whole day).

Feats. The quantity of feats have been reduced due to a lot of the weapon related feats being absorbed into the Martial power source, as note above. Most of the feats for 4th Edition are race ability or class ability enhancements, as well as the usual proficiency feats.

Skills have changed as well. Rather than collecting and distributing skill points each time you level, the skills are either trained or untrained, where trained skills get a +5 bonus. A skill check is now: 1d20 + 1/2 your level (rounded down) + Ability modifier (from str, dex, wis etc.) + 5 if trained + any situational buffs, bonuses or penalties. So you see, your skills naturally scale with your level and also you're not completely useless in a skill if you don't have it trained. As before, classes have class skills and you can only be trained in your class skills.

Defences and saves have changed too. Fort, will and reflex are now no longer saves, they're defences and work just like AC. Different attacks will attack different defences. Saves are now a simple d20 roll. Less than 10 is fail, 10 or more is save.

Races are:
Dragonborn
Dwarves
Eladrin
Elves
Half-Elves
Halfings
Humans
Tieflings

Classes are:
Cleric
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Rogue
Warlock
Warlord
Wizard

Some of the traditional classes have been removed, like the bard, for example. Balance was the main reasoning for this as I shall explain in a minute. Initially, I was a bit disappointed that the sorcerer wasn't included, but I then discovered that the new rules have actually made the wizard a bit more sorcerer like anyway so I'm reasonably happy. Plus there's a fair chance that it may be included in a future supplement.

4th Edition introduces the concept of roles. Each class represents one of the four roles: Leader, Striker, Defender and Controller. All four should be represented in order for the group to be balanced. The Leader is a heavy hitter, but also confers bonuses on the group as he hits. The Striker is very good at attacking individual targets. Defender is your standard tank. Finally, the Controller is good at attacking multiple targets such as area attacks. That's just a very simple analysis. But the important point is that you should aim to have at least one of each in the group. The great aspect of the Leader type role, for example the cleric, is the bonuses to the team that he can give. This encouraged group play and tactics rather than just a slugging match. There are also a lot of other aspects of 4th Edition that encourage cooperative play that I haven't mentioned.

Monsters. It's hard to explain all the changes to monsters, in that it would take pages! The monsters are simpler. They also have roles, although they are different roles, such as brute, artillery, minion. It's fairly obvious from the names the sorts of roles they play. Monsters of the same type but different role, ie artillery kobold and brute kobold, have different skillsets and so require different tactics to tackle. A lot of work has been done on how encounters are put together using monsters. Again, it would take too long to explain but, in my opinion, it's simpler and better than the 3rd Edition system, which can only be a good thing.

All in all, I like what I've read about 4th Edition and I can't see anything, in terms of the ruleset, that I would definitely state is a bad idea. However, extensive play will show up any problems that lurk below the surface.

Finally, I was going to mention a bit about the Forgotten Realms setting changes that they're making for 4th Edition, but this post is too long already so I'll save it for another day.

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Last edited by X2-PB on Tue Aug 05, 2008 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 1:48 am 
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Good Post X2, I would love to hear more of what you have to say about the D&D 4th Edition.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 8:29 am 
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Great post! Feel free to continue your comments!

I had heard rumblings on the internet that people were complaining that the new D&D rules were more like WoW, but I had no idea it was that similar.

When I played tabletop D&D combat was always an annoying, long, beat em up. I love the "roles" concepts and the simplification. Taking 3 minutes to see if your club hit a skeleton is not fun.

Can't wait to hear more.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:56 pm 
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Yeah that's pretty good for covering the start. I would add that the + 1/2 level modifier has almost become the basic mechanic of the game, replacing Base Attack Bonus and largely replacing the AC and save modifiers and skill points for classes that made up the bulk of the class advancement tables in the 3.5 books.
There have been changes in both ways on the simplicity vs choice spectrum. Multiclassing has been scaled back to almost not exist; you can't be a fighter 2/rogue 2, just a fighter 4 with a feat that gives you training in one rogue skill and allows you to use Sneak Attack once per encounter. The variability of prestige classes with differing requirements has also been traded for paragon paths, which are basically specializations within your class that pick up from 11th-20th level. There is obviously room to expand here, maybe we will see paragon paths available to multiple classes and such in the future. There are also epic destinies for level 21-30 (the Player's Handbook now covers up to level 30), but there are only 4 so far in the PHB, and they just give minor stat boosts and rerolls and stuff.
On the other hand, there is a lot more flexibility within classes, so where before two level 4 fighters would only differ significantly in the choice of feats they had, there are a lot of choices to be made in power selection. Almost every power you pick is one out of three or four, leading to a lot more variation within classes. Each class has at least two build ideas presented which can work quite differently, as in the archer or two-weapon ranger, or the three different pacts for the warlock.

I have run three different campaigns for 3.5 and played in 3 more, so I will be able to give some more input in a couple of weeks after I run a session for some of my Japanese friends. Should be interesting...

I also want to note that this should definitely be playable when it comes out online, assuming everything functions. I would be happy to DM for an Avian group.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 12:43 pm 
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Onto Kracken wrote:
I also want to note that this should definitely be playable when it comes out online, assuming everything functions. I would be happy to DM for an Avian group.


What an intriguing idea! I haven't played D&D in at least 10 years (2nd Ed.) but I'd love to get in on an Avian group if the scheduling works out.

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80S - Madson-(450 BS / 450 M)...........80H - Madera-(447 Eng / 412 Enc)...........80K - Madala-(450 Herb / 450 Skin)
65L - Madwyn-(430Ins / 329 Tail)........61M - Madran-(300 M / 250 Enc).............64P - Madmon-(315 M / 347 JC)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:37 pm 
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Madson wrote:
Onto Kracken wrote:
I also want to note that this should definitely be playable when it comes out online, assuming everything functions. I would be happy to DM for an Avian group.


What an intriguing idea! I haven't played D&D in at least 10 years (2nd Ed.) but I'd love to get in on an Avian group if the scheduling works out.


For me it's been closer to 20, but would be interested too in an avian group.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:47 pm 
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That's a very good summary, Onto, on the bits that I missed out.

There was a previous attempt to get a play by post style Avian D&D game going a couple of years ago. It never got off the ground though.

It's interesting the comment about Prestige Classes of 3.5 Ed.. I never liked prestige classes as they smacked of powergaming to me. It seemed that they would always have the benefits of the various classes they were derived from but few of the negatives.

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X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:26 pm 
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So for those of you who are interested in Forgotten Realms:
Read this .... and weep.
Then read this .... and weep.
Then ... read this .... and weep.
Then ......... read this (zipped pdf, read pages 5-9) .... and scream YYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHOOOOOOOO! ........................ and then weep!


For all those who can't be bothered to read all that: Mystra is killed, magic dies, creates spellplague (huge magic chaotic storm thingy), lots of mages die or go mad, the weave no longer exists but some work out how to access magic by other means. And the cheery bit? We get a SWORDMAGE!!! :mrgreen:



And for those who haven't done so yet, I urge you to sign here

_________________
X2-PB

Pathfinder Kingmaker Campaign:
Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 10:53 pm 
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I guess this might be the place to make a quick review of my first session. All my players were first time D&Ders, and I was running it in Japanese, so it was a little tough, but things worked out pretty well with the whiteboard I set up to run battles.
We had a tiefling fighter, a half-elf warlord, and a human warlock, pretty balanced and fun team. There was some amount of hesitation as to when to use encounter and daily powers, and my girlfriend didn't really understand the rules very well, but she's kind of always like that, and the rules explanation they got was pretty much ad hoc explanation from me whenever it came up, like how to charge when in range and use your second wind to heal (instead of an attack, once per encounter you can use a healing surge to regain some hits and raise your defenses until the next turn). My friends that have played a lot of console and PC RPGs figured it out fairly quickly and said they had a great time.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:02 pm 
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D&D Japanese style - thats awesome.

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