Avian Gamers Network

Cyrus’s non-expert opinion why SWG failed to be the game that most of us were looking for. I am by no means an expert. But I was around about two years before the game was released, and this is what I think:

History as I remember it:

Release -3 years: SWG was rocking and rolling along. They had many great ideas for a Star Wars MMO, and they had many of the kings of MMO design and development. The world generation tools were said to be amazing. Developers no longer needed to hand tool each and every location in the world, they could just adjust variables and the engine would do all the work. A great combat system was in the works, as was a very robust crafting system. Rumor had it that you did not even need to fight in SWG, a player could have a fun and fulfilling life as a crafter. Mantison’s City Bothen idea was a MMO dream come true. There would be Player cities, and vehicles. Themeparks would be huge areas where we could interact in memorable Star Wars locations, and receive missions from key iconic characters from Star Wars Lore. The game had more potential than any other MMO.

Release-2 years: Outcasting and PVP took up too much time. The debate went on and on. From my understanding, considerable resources were devoted to the outcasting system and the way land would be controlled by factions. By all accounts the system existed, but for one reason or another the idea was scraped. I am not here to defend outcasting, I just remember considerable debate and developer comments on the system.

Release-1 year: Many expected the game to out by now, but little did we know that the game was no where close to being ready. Everyone was waiting for Beta, and many figured it would be a long and through testing phase. Supposedly the crafting system was being worked on, and some PvP system to fill the outcasting void was being worked on too. Information on new plants was trickling out, meanwhile other planets were still being made, and they may or may not be ready for release. Many key features were cut from the initial release, no vechicles, mounts, or player cities.

Release Day 1: No one could play on day one. Total meltdown

Release Day 2: Game looked great. We all had a blast in those first few days. We were weak as hell, so anything could kill us. We had to walk everywhere, and danger spawned around every corner. Gathering resources for out guild hall was a massive team effort. These were the best days ever despite the danger. Hell I argue the danger made it all the better.

Release month? Before Christmas: Game was too easy. There was nothing to do, nothing to strive for. Battlegrounds were broken; you could run everywhere because spawns would only appear behind you. I can’t remember if player cities and mounts were here yet, but what I do remember is the Holocron mystery. The hardest thing to do in the game was kill elite stormtroopers for holocron drops. Never mind the fact that stormtroopers should never be dropping holocrons in the first place. Developers in there infant stupidity used their magic tools look into the game and see what was going on. They determined that Players were massively killing stormtroppers for holocrons. Therefore they must really want to be Jedi.

WRONG! Many were killing for holocrons because it was the only challenge at the time. There was mystery in that we did not know the key to Jedi hood was mastering professions. Gamers flock to challenge, and holocrons and deciphering their mysteries were the only challenge in the game. Thus begins the games design’s loss of direction. From then on out, the game would suffer from a lack of direction until EQ2 and WoW would be released. After these games are released, the best improvements in the history of SWG would be implemented. Too late for most players.

Cy Summery: I think the outcasting debacle stole valuable form the development of the game. Upon beta, crafting was hugely nonexistent, professions were empty, worlds were lifeless. There were no quests, no content, no music. The place looked beautiful, but that was about it. Basicaly not enough time was applied to many aspects of the game. Facing time constraint pressures, many game systems were rushed and very underdeveloped. The game would suffer form catch-up mode for years. I am no expert, but I think it all started with doing away with outcasting and the time lost because of that decision.

I am just curious, I think it all started going down hill with outcasting. Hey but what do I know!

I know a lot of you guys were active before I was. Many of you were key SWG forum personalities. I would like to hear what you think was the reason SWG was not a bigger success.

I don't know if it was the Outcast system, it was probably that along with other systems that were created but for one reason or another trashed. Im with you at some point the devs just got way behind schedule and have tried to play catch-up while still putting out expansions+publishes and new content etc... that are required of them.

_________________
Ryric Krael
Former Vice President AGN
Former Director, Section 6
Former Head of Department of the Treasury
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Ask not what your PA can do for you, but what you can do for your PA
"Gone Section Five"

I don't know with you, but for me as a new player the problem is that there aren't enough players anymore. I've been going solo on all the quests I've done now.

At the space I should be lucky if I see one player ship an hour.

The interest for crafting isn't there because everybody has already done something and made the things you need.

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1st Feb 2008

I think the players/followers expectations started getting destroyed with the Outcasting debacle, and I think the whole Outcasting situation was a harbinger of things to come.

Starting with Outcasting they would get us all very excited about an idea/game mechanic, thoroughly sell us one it, and then yank it. Outcasting was the most significant, but not the last, time they did this, and it really got people to start expecting SOE to continue to screw them.

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"Loose with Dignity"
Robert
Second President, Avian Gamers

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Azz at one time we had over 200 Avian Members playing SWG. We were crafters, and if was fun just to walk around and shop fellow members stores. Those were the good old days.

Gui I agree with the expectations. I still want to play a Star Wars MMO. But I am waiting for SWG2, a game that will hopefully start out on the right foot. There is no rule saying that a MMO must come out incomplete and bugged. That is a SOE rule, not a MMO rule. WoW came out a fully functioning game with all major expectations met. However I think there has to be something more than just expatiations. I can be let down, but if the game delivered I could continue to play. There are areas of WoW that let me down and do not live up to my expatiations.... but the game delivers. SWG was delayed for quite some time, when it was released it was missing so much.... it just did not deliver.

1. I think Koester’s no questing, no content, obvious treadmill model is snake oil. It worked to keep the masses happy in MMO Generation 1, but it will not work in Generation 2. That is a lazy mans way of making a MMO. The computer generated world and kindergarten questing mentality will loose out over the hand crafted worlds and the deep meaningful questing approach.
   
2. I think outcasting stole valuable time away from other aspects of the game causing them all to feel incomplete. Remember how the bazaar did not work originally, and resources could not be sold out of vendors. That is fundamental stuff. I remember seeing a Harvester UI for the first time and being highly disappointed. It was as if the UI had no thought put into it. The same goes for the fishing UI. All the small details screamed CHEAP, TEMPORARY, or UNFINISHED.
   
3. Then the live team had a lack of guidance. They added Jedi to pacify an increasingly disillusioned player base. This was directly against the games advertised charter. From then on out they had to fix Jedi instead of fixing all the other broken professions.

Either there were major scheduling errors, lack of guidance, major amount of time lost, or a combination of the above. Somehow the game was not released with all thrusters firing. From then until now the direction was missing, and the game delivered the wrong add-ons instead of the right improvements.

I think bugs killed this game. Maybe not bugs but a poor code and database design that forced devs to spend too much time on fixing bugs. I also have the feeling that the devs started working on the game in beta, because there was nothing at the beginning of the beta, not even the crafting system. Hell, servers couldn't even be up all the day...

I don't understand why this happened, but it killed the game. I played SWG to see massive events happening out of the civil war, like factions controlling cities, a new story each month, etc... So when they started the first """monthly""" story it rejoiced me a bit but well we've all seen where it went...

Add to this the poor Jedi design, the overall unfinished state of the game and you have a pretty poor game.

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Flyoc,
Farm with attitude.

I agree here. So many systems where dev'd but never even coded r dropped after to much time spent doing so. Those years -3 -2 where far to valuable to be lost to bad game design.

Kostner is the MMO Devil plan and simple. I agree with Cy on the fact that his modle worked for MMO v1 but is childsplay now.

Im sorry but the new model of MMOs IS WoW. Make SWG2 (which I hope and pray will be made 3 years from now and use that model and all will be well.

While I blame LA a lot for the game I really must place most blame on the Producers. Look at all other SW games they are solid games and KotOR shows us they have the ability to make complex character driven games and quests.

I honestly have not quite accepted the fact that I will never play SWG again, I just spent to much time and effort on that game to now think that my houses may poof within 2 months. It is/was my first MMO so maybe I have nesting issues with it but aleast I have WoW to play.

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Moge

I really did not feel screwed until the space expansion. I felt let down... not screwed. Before the space expansion I felt like a horse chasing a carrot… but I was willing to keep on waiting for the golden day to come. It was not until the majority of the developing manpower was taken away from the core game, to produce the space expansion that I felt generally screwed and taken advantage of.

Honestly I think adding an expansion product while the original product is hurting so badly is unethical. However I am willing to concede that big plans span years and the space expansion was already booked for development long before everyone realized SWG was in such bad shape.

BUT you do not take GreenMarine and other developers off the main project when it is in such disarray. The only way to do it ethically is to have both teams fully staffed. You can have interaction between teams to make sure the new stuff will work with the old stuff. But you do not pull developers off the main hurting game just to sell me a new product. They crossed the line. They used my subscription money to develop a new product. I quit just to send a message that they were making poor business decisions.

The nail in the coffin was that I was not allowed to beta test the space expansion if my SWG account was not being paid for. I had already been beta testing the space expansion, but the moment my subscription ran out I was no longer allowed to beta test. That was the last carrot I could stand. Too many gimmicks were being used to keep me paying.

If you are using gimmicks to keep players paying, you have lost focus of your goals as a game provider.

I agree with Gui here. Outcasting was simply the most publicized game mechanic that was not entirely worked out. It was merely an example of the state of the game at the time: many good ideas that did not work in the actual design, and were basically flawed and thus pulled from the game.

It did not start with outcasting, it started with basic design that tried to do too much, to deviate too far from what was tried and true and led nowwher, only to a lack of finsh on the delivered product.

SWG still has a lot of option for the player, but most of them lead you nowhere and are not worth it. WoW on the other hand only does a few things and does them very well. No fancy things in the design phase, just taking tried anf true things and making them better.

Small, handcrafted worlds full of meaningful content are where it's at, not huge, empty worlds and random crap that forces players to become creative or leave.

Edward

This conclusion reminds me a lot of another game that was highly anticipated in some circle, but failed horribly on delivery. That game is Master of Orion 3. I was/am a huge MOO series fan. When word that 3 was in development, I followed it for years. Again, a game with revolutionary ideas to gaming that would be one of a kind. The dev team failed to get their arms around the concept and ended up removing the "spine" of the game. What was delivered was a bunch of "ribs" connceted to nothing. An endless kalaidescope of menus for micromanagement that didn't seem to go anywhere. Gigantic disappointment.

You can find MOO3 for $14.99 at many major retailers. SWG is near it.

I wouldn't describe outcasting as the main problem pre-production. It was one of a number of items where a u-turn was made and the solution was not given the time for thought that the original idea was. One of the biggest causes of problems was from the soloer crowd. Anyone remember caella? I believe that she was one of the people that, through whining for the game to suit their own play style, singlehandedly destroyed the design. A lot of things were restructured to be solo-friendly. The outcasting alternative tried to work on this as well.

Crafting. I truely believe that they didn't even start coding the crafting mechanism until six weeks before beta three. There was no thought put in to it, no listening to ideas from the player base (Anyone read Reng Cole's The Art of Crafting? I sure the devs didn't.). The game now also suffers from a lack of a mining profession, removed because it "wasn't fun". I'm sure it didn't exist past the paper design stage.

The games biggest problem was that it was released too early. I remember hearing the announcement three or four days after I got into beta three. I distintly remember thinking "this game is no where near ready for release".

With regard to LA, you point out that games like KotOR work well. They may seem to, but if you scratch the surface on a lot of their recent games, you'll find most suffer the same problem of being released before they're ready. KotOR2 lost probably in excess of one third of it's gameplay because it's development timetable was truncated. If you don't believe me, analyse the CDs and you'll find several conversation trees in sound files from the end game that were simply cut.

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X2-PB

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Gednan Malithanar - Wizard (1)
Dukin Thunderstrike - Ranger (1)

Star Citizen: - https://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/
AntanKarmola on their forums

Star Wars: The Old Republic: - Not really playing
Antare Karmola - Jedi Guardian (32)
Antan Karmola - Jedi Shadow (21)
Arianae Karmola - Gunslinger (20)

I liked KotorII never played 1 though...but yes its true LA does have deadline issues...as well as proliferation issues with there SW license

_________________
Ryric Krael
Former Vice President AGN
Former Director, Section 6
Former Head of Department of the Treasury
-------
Ask not what your PA can do for you, but what you can do for your PA
"Gone Section Five"

KOTOR 1 was one of the best Star Wars games I've ever seen. I'd really advise anyone who missed it to go back and play it. 2 was OK... though had some tedious points, and basically had a different story on the same engine as 1.

What was outcasting? Was that where we could put bounties on other players heads?

I agree that crafting never got to where it should have. I originally joined Avian because I fell in love with Crafting as it was described in Kebernet's original article that was on the SWG main site... and I believe crafting died a painful death when they kicked KEbernet out for saying Crafting wasn't fun enough.

I think what hurt the most was the sheer number of BUGS. The fact that droids were almost totally useless... and that crafting modules wouldn't work... and turned random colors... and could be pulled out 20-times on server edges... or all the Bounty Hunter issues... or tons of gated quests... etc.

Lesson learned from WoW+SWG+CoH:
1) Keep It Simple, Stupid! Get your core game to be 99% polished, then start adding in the tweaks.

2) Concentrate on challenging yet achievable "big emotional payoffs." Finishing the Deadmines, or completing a particularly hard set of quests... etc. Something where you can say, "last night, I did X"

3) Give Rewards, never punishments. I hated that in CoH, I'd lose a huge chunk of XP whenever I died. I would think to myself "Wow, I just through away 1 hour of my life". I loved in WoW the double XP reward you got for not playing for a few days (which is the exact same thing as a half-XP penalty for frequent players, though with a better slant on it).

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--The Hermit

I am rusty as hell, but what I remember was the developers were trying to make a system where players controlled an area. A player could be labeled as an outcast if he did something wrong in that area like killing a citizen, then that outcast person would be kill on sight when in that area. There could be huge lawless areas where the outcasts could really act like scum and villainy. A outcast person could get pardoned to remove the outcast label.

My point was not that outcast was a bad or good thing. My point was that the magnitude of time devoted to this single idea was huge. When it was trashed in favor of a blank slate system which became the overt/covert system, SWG was forever to be doomed in catch up mode. That is why crafting was so raw. That is why quests were as deep as kiddy pool. That is why battlefields and PvP were lacking. That is why droids did not work as intended for years.

Basically I think the loss of time one that one early issue may have been SWG’s setback that rippled unto all the other setbacks. In construction, and I imagine many other things, there is a form of scheduling know as CPM or critical path method. You have many tasks that need to be done and some start and end related to other tasks. Each task has duration. Some tasks fall on the critical path, meaning that delay in those tasks will effect the completion date. The overt/covert or Outcast design task was key to the game. Other tasks may not have been able to start until it was complete… thus so many unfinished systems. Like a house... if you delay the foundation, you cant paint the walls or lay the carpet.


But as I type this, I remember how the Devs were surprised that players wanted to play on the imperial side. That to me is extreme short sidedness. Maybe the setback of making an imperial playing faction was enough to set the back to failure. But I doubt much was coded back then. Whereas outcast was coded and being tested internally.

Those are the big rules right here. Especially Rule Number One.

For MMOGs another important rule is: make the game accessible and fun for new players, don't hide the best stuff away and make it accessible only for high-end players.

Edward
Never Forget Rule One