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Mining Operation shares: Discussion
http://www.avian-gamers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=16047		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  LazyAmy [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:38 am ]
Post subject:  Mining Operation shares: Discussion
OK. We have reached the point in our abilities where a mining operation can last 12 hours or more and have people joining and leaving thruout the day.

Splitting the operation shares equally for such an operation has become difficult and it's been discussed in game that we should find a new method for running operations and deviding the minerals mined.

So I am starting this thread to open discussions on how we might conduct operations in the future.

I'm going to start off the discussion with a basic outline of an idea I thought was a good one.

Time shares

Noooo. I don't mean like the beach houses you live in 2 weeks out of the year. I mean have a mining op pay out to the participants based on their time put in working in th eop.

If someone has a way to program a device we could use to sign in and out of the op and then have the minerals attained during the op inputted into the operations program then devided up among the participants based on their time I think that would be the fairest method.

For instance. A web page where we goto and clock in when we join the op, then clock out when we are done.
Then after the op who ever refines and combines the resources collected enters in the amounts of each resource at the website which then devides it up by shares and the mining op coordinator can escrow or trade out the shares to the people based on the websites calculations.

Is this something that can be done or would it be way too much work? Is there a better way to do it? (I'm numb in the head when it comes the what can be done in programming)

-LA
Author:  Arindel [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:21 am ]
Post subject: 
Might just work easier for paper and pencil...
Start timing yourself when you actively join up (mining/hauling) and count every 15 or 30 minute block of time.

Total Haul / total units of time * your personal time?
Author:  Angus MacGregor [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:36 am ]
Post subject: 
Arindel wrote:
Might just work easier for paper and pencil...
Start timing yourself when you actively join up (mining/hauling) and count every 15 or 30 minute block of time.

Total Haul / total units of time * your personal time?


Nah, it would be much easier to be able to automate this, and access it through the in-game browser, if possible. You log in when you start, and log out when you leave, and it keeps track of your time, rounded off to the nearest quarter hour for simplicity's sake. Then, at the end of the op, the person dividing the take inputs the total ore, and it calculates who gets what, making it easy for everyone involved. I'll leave the ease of programming such a thing to those who know how to do it.

As for the math of how to split it, that seems pretty simple. If you take your time divided by the total time, it gives you a percentage number to work with. Then take the total ore and multiply it by the percentage, and there is your cut.

Pretty straightforward.
Author:  X2-PB [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:40 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree that from a time expended and work done point of view time shares are the fairest way to distribute the resources.


The main problem I have is that the timing of the op depends on when people are online and the availability of haulers. Because of the time that the ops tend to officially start and my RL timing issues (which I shan't get into) I end up only being able to stay for one or two hours of what generally ends up being about a 12 hour op. As a Crafter, with this system, I lose out twice. First in that I get less resources from the op in the first place and second in that I have less money, from those resources that I don't need and can sell, with which to buy the resources that I do need. I can, of course, earn money in other ways but most people here will freely admit that mining is by far the most effective method.

I have a couple of possible solutions to this:
1) The effective money making mineral is the Isogen. This, at least for the moment, is not really needed for crafting by myself (don't know about the others currently). We could split the Isogen according to the shares system such that the hard working miners get the most effective payout for their hard work and then the other minerals get distributed in a manner that better benefits the crafters so they don't have to go buy their resources.
2) The second method is that the minerals for the large ops are split evenly between corps and we in Avian work out some method of "corp-backing" its crafters rather than leaving them to survive on an individual basis. Effectively pooling resources for the benefit of the entire Corp rather than it being a group of individuals. (Some of the Crafters profits would then likewise go back into the Corp).
Author:  Arindel [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Nah, it would be much easier to be able to automate this, and access it through the in-game browser,

They have something like this?
Author:  Angus MacGregor [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:53 am ]
Post subject: 
Arindel wrote:
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Nah, it would be much easier to be able to automate this, and access it through the in-game browser,

They have something like this?


Not yet, but it's possible. I think Yak said something last night about being able to do it.
Author:  Obo [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:58 am ]
Post subject: 
Arindel wrote:
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Nah, it would be much easier to be able to automate this, and access it through the in-game browser,

They have something like this?

If you mean the browser, then yes it's there. It's not great but it can handle simple displays.
Author:  bigyak [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:22 am ]
Post subject: 
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Not yet, but it's possible. I think Yak said something last night about being able to do it.


I think I said something to the effect of "I bet Obo, being the wise and masterful genius that he is, could write that program in 5 minutes!"
Author:  Angus MacGregor [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:26 am ]
Post subject: 
bigyak wrote:
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Not yet, but it's possible. I think Yak said something last night about being able to do it.


I think I said something to the effect of "I bet Obo, being the wise and masterful genius that he is, could write that program in 5 minutes!"


Well, all I know is, you guys have much more knowledge of the programming side of it than I do, so I bow to your wisdom there.

The math of it is easy. Obo having time to write the script can be difficult. :lol:
Author:  Cetera [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:31 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree and disagree with X2 on this case. It does suck the way the game currently spawns and distributes resources. Tuesdays and Thursdays are the two worst days of the week for me to try to do mining. I do think it is important to try to be able to "level" our crafters. Of course, that doesn't actually come from using resources. That happens from just keeping your skills grinding, if I'm understanding the crafting process.

I think we could very easily set up a "mineral tax" after the mining ops for Avians to provide Antan with some raw materials to get his profession up and running, with a reverse "products tax" coming back the other way at some point in the future. That's just all details, and doesn't really address the mining op share division, though.

I'm not really in charge of anything (being a newb to EVE), but I'd ask Antan to put together a proposal for how he wants that to work, and take it to the Avian EVE leadership and see about getting something like that implemented.

As far as splitting up mining op proceeds evenly, though, its an entirely different issue.

Really, it somewhat depends on the current actual "miners." Obo can take out an entire belt by himself, and right now is donating a lot of those proceeds to everyone else. Obo could be hauling in a ton of money while us newbs just scrape by. Those that do the most actual production should get the most say, I think. Last night I was able to get my miner IIs into use finally, and I've got my cruiser skill working (I get an extra 20% yield per level with my ship) so I'm hopefully going to be able to start pulling my own weight soon. I just activated a real account, so I can start working on some of the other skills that can help too. I certainly don't mind mining as much as I can and sharing with all. Obo is also a very generous chap (see him maintaining this site and all costs for years), but it has to get old to haul in a bunch of stuff and actually only get paid for a fraction of that.
Author:  Obo [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
Btw, with my mineral shares, if it ain't Isogen, it goes in the corp Hanger.
Author:  iJasonT [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:19 pm ]
Post subject: 
bigyak wrote:
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Not yet, but it's possible. I think Yak said something last night about being able to do it.


I think I said something to the effect of "I bet Obo, being the wise and masterful genius that he is, could write that program in 5 minutes!"


I too heard this very thing. 8)

as for shares. I'm also a crafter but I guess I have the advantage of being able to dual-character so solo mining isnt an issue but I see how it is for others.

I also think this is a seperate idea from what is being talked about here. If we can start anothe rthread on this I think we can get a better discussion going. One that I think would benifit everyone if we started 'corp-backing' our crafters.

As for splits. Yes, a clock in and clock out time is very nice. Only issue I see is if someone 'forgets' to clock in or out. But that is something we can add a manual feature to.
Author:  Cyrus Rex [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:29 pm ]
Post subject: 
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Arindel wrote:
Might just work easier for paper and pencil...
Start timing yourself when you actively join up (mining/hauling) and count every 15 or 30 minute block of time.

Total Haul / total units of time * your personal time?


Nah, it would be much easier to be able to automate this, and access it through the in-game browser, if possible. You log in when you start, and log out when you leave, and it keeps track of your time, rounded off to the nearest quarter hour for simplicity's sake. Then, at the end of the op, the person dividing the take inputs the total ore, and it calculates who gets what, making it easy for everyone involved. I'll leave the ease of programming such a thing to those who know how to do it.

As for the math of how to split it, that seems pretty simple. If you take your time divided by the total time, it gives you a percentage number to work with. Then take the total ore and multiply it by the percentage, and there is your cut.

Pretty straightforward.


This could be done in excel if not in a browser.

Have each gang participant helping in the op give their start and end time. Then do the math exactly how Angus says above. We did this in CR, except we divided by lots, not time. That percentage was then multiplied for the sales that week, and that was their cut.

Not much different than what Angus says above. The math is very easy. A browser would be cool, but if not we could always do it in excel.

Also, I am in no hurry for my money. If it takes a day before the ore is divided I am cool with that.
Author:  Angus MacGregor [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cyrus Rex wrote:
This could be done in excel if not in a browser.

Have each gang participant helping in the op give their start and end time. Then do the math exactly how Angus says above. We did this in CR, except we divided by lots, not time. That percentage was then multiplied for the sales that week, and that was their cut.

Not much different than what Angus says above. The math is very easy. A browser would be cool, but if not we could always do it in excel.

Also, I am in no hurry for my money. If it takes a day before the ore is divided I am cool with that.


Yeah, it would be pretty easy to keep track of in excel. The only hard part I can see with it would be that someone would have to input the data, and that means that everyone would have to make sure to get that data to that person.
Author:  Arindel [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:52 pm ]
Post subject: 
Angus MacGregor wrote:
Cyrus Rex wrote:
Not much different than what Angus says above. The math is very easy. A browser would be cool, but if not we could always do it in excel.

Also, I am in no hurry for my money. If it takes a day before the ore is divided I am cool with that.


Yeah, it would be pretty easy to keep track of in excel. The only hard part I can see with it would be that someone would have to input the data, and that means that everyone would have to make sure to get that data to that person.

Hey! What was wrong with my math?

The advantage the game gives you is that you can go multiple minutes without a need for action and we could easily email files if the tracker has to leave before the operation is complete. A spreadsheet could easily be made with formulas and handed out to everyone.

As for getting your money right away. For me that doesn't matter much anyhow. the only time I might want it faster is when I'm about to make a huge purchase (ship upgrade). but, the reality is these things can usually wait as well (for me that is).

The games pace seems very slow, but I can see where the action side can get faster. Plus, there's just so much time we need to put in to even get to the 25% level of game features. We're barely scratching the surface.
Author:  bigyak [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:57 pm ]
Post subject: 
Quote:
I think we could very easily set up a "mineral tax" after the mining ops for Avians to provide Antan with some raw materials to get his profession up and running, with a reverse "products tax" coming back the other way at some point in the future. That's just all details, and doesn't really address the mining op share division, though.


:) How about rather than a tax, Antan just ask people to invest in him if he needs minerals, for which he can later pay people back for? Not to get into a discussion on socialism, or management overhead, but I think this would just be easiest in the long run.

Again, having one person manage an excel chart is a pain because they have to constantly update/enter/track data. A simple web script could be much easier... Clock in, clock out, foreman checks the script at the end of the night and gets a number to send to everyone.

I'm doing the same... if it ain't isogen, I just stick it in the corp hanger. Actually, I think I just stick most of the things in the corp hanger, as I've got the ship I plan to be in for the next month.
Author:  X2-PB [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:36 pm ]
Post subject: 
Ok, "Corp-Backing" crafters disscussion, I'm taking to another thread.

Linky
Author:  Khazid [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:25 pm ]
Post subject: 
I am going to take a stab at this for us. I'm pretty handy in excel and I think I can accomplish most if not all of what we want to do. However, I do not possess the skills of converting .xls into .xml and into .html.

Does Avian have anyone that possesses those skills?
Author:  bigyak [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:54 pm ]
Post subject: 
Cool, Khazid.

We've got 4 or 5 people here who could do it through a web page... I think all of us ubernerds are just looking at the otherones to hopefully volunteer first.

Though if you want to do it through excel, you could build a VBS macro to parse through the latest file in "C:\Program Files\CCP\EVE\capture\Chatlogs" and have it cpature whenever someone says "MINING STARTED" or "MINING STOPPED".

It wouldn't be a web solution, but it'd work just as well.
Author:  iJasonT [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 10:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
problem is some of us dont use Excel. Importing docs doesnt work very well in Open Office. Also, we would need to have time stamps on the chat log for that to work.

Not nay saying, Im just saying...
Author:  bigyak [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
So... mr Webmaster Moge, why not build the php page do do it. ;)
Author:  Khazid [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:15 am ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Jason on this one. While an excel sheet is great for an individual user it is going to be a heck of a pain to build a macro that will properly record each user.

Much simpler to build a basic spreadsheet that can be converted to .xml and then imported into PHP and cleaned up. Then all you have to do is select your name from a drop down and punch in and then punch out.

We will also need a button to clear all the time punches so that the page can be reset after the mining op is done.

I'll continue to play with it over the next couple of days and see what I can come up with. I've got the math all done, and the vlookup()'s completed. The logic is in place as is the the ability to build the drop downs. However, I've hit a snag with pulling in the punch time. I'll do some research and see if I can't find a way to do that with a now() call on a command button.
Author:  iJasonT [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:49 am ]
Post subject: 
now() is fairly basic.
make a db entry for start and finish
give each a DATETIME type and place '0000-00-00 00:00:00' as the default

this will clock them in and out using epoc time but put that time into a readable standard in the db.
To get total time just:
$totaltime = (strtotime($end) - strtotime(start));

to display the time in and time out use:
Code:
//$date would be either the start or the end punch clock time

function displaydate($date){
$udate = strtotime($date);
$display_date = date("M d, Y H:i",$udate);
return $display_date;
}
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