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Corp-Backing Crafters: Discussion
http://www.avian-gamers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=16050		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  X2-PB [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Corp-Backing Crafters: Discussion
This is derived from the Mining shares thread about the Avian Corp in game backing its crafters in terms of minerals and such. For more background, read the mining shares thread (linky).

bigyak wrote:
:) How about rather than a tax, Antan just ask people to invest in him if he needs minerals, for which he can later pay people back for? Not to get into a discussion on socialism, or management overhead, but I think this would just be easiest in the long run.
This is an interesting idea, Yak, but I'm wondering if you can give a bit more of an in-depth description for me. How do you mean invest? Does someone give me minerals in exchange for shares and I give a dividend from the profits? Or more directly that I get given the minerals and pay back when I get the money from the sales?

A number of people mentioned leaving non-isogen minerals in the corp hanger (presumably in Aice II Station) if anyone isn't taking or selling these, can I and Moge (moniker, whichever is the crafter) take them between us?
Author:  X2-PB [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:59 pm ]
Post subject: 
With regard to the corp taking a tax of minerals and providing the crafters with them and then taxing the crafters from their profits. I do like this idea, but it would be better off further down the line when we are trying to make much larger items (I currently have plans, after my current wave of produce selling, on starting on making ships. Begining with frigs and working up.). Even when we get to the stage of making cruisers, great effort would be needed to gather the minerals, or the production simply wouldn't be worthwhile.


Additionally, if you gather loot from combat missions and don't require them, get them to someone with a high skill in refining (I believe Moge is working on this) as the reprocessing of loot is an effective safe way of obtaining some of the rarer and more valuable minerals. We'd also benefit more from having these minerals than the money you'd get from selling the loot.
Author:  Arindel [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:12 pm ]
Post subject: 
I think yak might be talking about shared success or just a simple payback.

It really depends on the goals of the individual, the goals of the group and if there is any convergence. Do we operate in harmony sharing everything (either straight of by some % of effort) or is it each person has their own bankroll?

The first method means we spilt up the profit according to some predetermined method. you would be compensated for your work as a crafter and hte miners are compensated for getting the goods (free of charge).

Or, the other method (which is how we did it in SWG) was that you paid for your goods.

Based on yak's suggestion, I think he means for you to pay, but because you aren't contributing (mining or hauling...dunno if that's true or not) and wanting minerals (for free) then some type of investing is done into your business. In otherwords, someone else's efforts are bankrolling your enterprise :wink:
Author:  LazyAmy [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:01 pm ]
Post subject: 
Well...if you took each manufacturing project as a seperate venture then you could simply treat minerals invested as shares in that project.

You assign a value to each mineral in shares based on average market value.
Tritanium 1.5
Pyerite 4
Mexallon 12
Isogen 115
And so on. (I would post the others, but I don't deal in them yet so don't know the average market value of them, but whatever, you assign a value to each mineral...mkay? :P )

Then you figure out the cost to manufacture (Renting the facility, any applicable taxes and other accociated costs)

So lets say you plan to make a run of 15 Whatsits.
The total resources needed for all 15 Whatsits is...

150,000 Tritanium (225,000 shares)
20,000 Pyerite (80,000 shares)
2,000 Mexallon (24,000 shares)
150 Isogen (17,250 shares)
5,000 ISK in manufacturing costs (5,000 shares)

This gives you 351,250 shares for the project.
Investors get shares based on what they provide.
If you sell the Whatsits for a total of 1,500,000 after taxes and broker fees then each shares pays the investers 4.3 ISK (1,500,000 devided by 351,250 shares) (I suggest rounding it down to an even ISK and allowing the crafter to keep the fractioned ISK as profit)

-LA
Author:  bigyak [ Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:51 pm ]
Post subject: 
Yeah, exactly what Arindel and LA said.

Here's a quick summary of my thinking:

If we have a guild goal. everyone that believes in that goal should ccontribute as much as possible towards it. This is what builds cities like ADoRI did, or what will presumably build stations for us in the future.

But, if it's to fund someone's progress or personal enterprise, then the entire community shouldn't be taxed for that... if said individual believes that they need extra help getting it started, then they should ask for a loan or for help... but there shouldn't be any mandatory tax. If we need to powerlevel someone to get to a guild goal, then that's different (but remember we did that for Dumin and look what happened).

That's why I (and other of the early players) gave you all those minerals before, and have sent a couple million ISK to everyone to help get them started... because we can, and because we like ya and want to help succeed.


But also remember... unless you're making 1 mil ISK/hour of game time, any thing you do isn't optimal... so you better be doing it for fun or personal growth (like running missions), not for profit... otherwise it's asking people to do the grunt work of mining to fund your fun time. Which is cool with me (I'll fund anyone to have fun), but I don't want to force it on others.
Author:  X2-PB [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:21 am ]
Post subject: 
So allow me to summarise this in my own words.

Unless people are feeling generous or I'm making something that is a direct goal to the Corp (This could include BSs, BCs, Freighters, Stations and the like), I'm effectively paying market price for my resources. I have a question though, if I was willing to pay market average rather than market best prices, would our miners still go for the best prices or be happy to sell to me for slightly less? (The price of course could be varied based on what would be reasonable) In SWG, we tried to set up a system where fellow members would get a discount and I wonder if this would still work in EVE.

It seems to me, therefore, that the important requirement for my private venture (Corp requirements then having to be considered separately) would be capital investment. So I think I'll create myself a proper set of accounts and put out a call for investors.
Author:  Angus MacGregor [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:28 am ]
Post subject: 
I'm putting everything but Isogen in the corp hangar at Aice II station. You're welcome to it. I make enough money from selling Isogen.

I have no problem doing this, as well as perhaps getting together for a mining night weekly or bi-weekly specifically aimed at giving corp crafters resources to work with... IF said resources are used to make things to benefit the corporation, and not used to make things to sell in order to make money for the crafters.
Author:  Cyrus Rex [ Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:43 pm ]
Post subject: 
I agree with Angus
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