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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:21 pm 
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if someone gets the collector's edition, i wouldn't mind getting access to the music cd via ftp or some such...

one other addition is a spiral notebook version of the book

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:36 pm 
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So no one can rip themselves away yet to give initial impressions eh?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:39 pm 
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UGH! The asshole at best buy yesterday said it was in on Thursday. Leaving now.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:43 pm 
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I'd love to get my hands on the music CD.

Be warned, I've been reading about a lot of problems with ATI video cards. I appears people are getting a Failed to Initialize Renderer error when loading the game. It seems to be completely centered around various ATI cards. But it almost looks like a DirectX problem to me. ATI seems to be the red headed step child of publishers anymore.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 4:47 pm 
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i had some install problems but worked through them - mostly recognizing the cd's, etc...i have an ati x800xt or whatever and so far so good...the recall on the bestbuy site that they weren't getting it till thursday..pretty sure ebgames and stores like gamestop were the ones getting it today.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:45 pm 
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Okay...I'll take a shot. At a very high level, these are my impressions:

- It's Civ...you either like or you don't.
- Better graphics than before
- Much, much, much more intuitive gameplay, interface, etc. You can never have played a prev. version and you will be able to pick this up quickly.
- See comment 1, while I'm enjoying myself I don't see what all the fuss is about...I think alot of time went into the multiplayer aspect which I haven't seen yet and / or subtle changes that just haven't registered yet.

EDIT

It's kinda cool that you can rotate the entire world in a particular view and see who's where...

Okay i got creamed and retired my first time out...played noble difficulty / huge map and tons of AI's. I ended up with the leadership ability of Dan Quayle! lol

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:21 am 
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I absolutely love it. Those are my impressions after about 6 hours of playing yesterday. This is what a game sequel should be.

First thing I noticed was the interface. Brilliant job. There is so much information now on the screen or just a mouse roll over away, it's incredible how it's so clean still. You can toggle layers on the maps to show resources, improvements, units, grid lines, etc. The GUI is simply polished and a joy to use.

Graphics are nothing stellar, but that's not what drives these games. They are a major step up regardless. So many unique unit animations make it fun just to watch the map. For instance, scouts, when dormant for a bit, kneel down and rub their hands on the ground to examine it for tracks. Enter a jungle and bats fly out of the trees (and that makes me laugh each time because I'm a simple man lol). The tile improvements are animated and more robust now too. Farms are working farms with houses, livestock get corraled up into a pen, mines have carts rolling out and dumping into a smelt with smoke. There's so much more too.

The music is awesome. What's not awesome is the way it's set up by default. There is none unless you're zoomed into the "city level" where you hear the cities music, or enter the city screen and hear the rustlings of village life (dogs, people chattering). Zoom out some and that's where the soundtrack is. Under the Audio options, if you choose the Custom Playlist and point it at x:\Program Files\Firaxis\Civilization 4\Assests\Soundtrack (I think, I'm at work now), it will randomly play a track out of each era. I hope they fix it so each era has it's own music instead of hearing Bach when chasing wolves with my scouts. But the custom play list seems to hint that you can add your own music to the game by pointing it to the correct folder. I haven't tried it, but don't see why it wouldn't work. I might just supplement the game's soundtrack with a few personal favorite works.

Mulitplayer is more than I could have asked for in this revision. It's extremely intuitive. I played mostly multiplayer with Sly and had a blast. It was him and myself teamed, against 9 AI players. The teaming option is great. It allows instant map updating from each player (you explore a new area, they see it immediately so no more constant map trading). The Civ score monitor also tells you what Technology your teammates are researching and in how many turns so no more "what are you researching again?". You can also research a technology as a team, and this is simply awesome. Got an advanced tech you want, like one that will found a religion in your city, but it takes 50 turns? By setting us both to the same tech, we pooled our resources together automatically and were able to research it in less than 14 turns. It also allows for one teammate to go after a big tech, and another hit the quick ones out. Once a tech is discovered, all team members are updated instantly with a friendly reminder from Leonard Nemoy and a choice historical quote that relates to the technology you've acquired.

Barbarians actually take control of cities now, not just raize them. I found that out the hard way. You simply can not expand like you could in previous Civ games. Cities need good protection as well as security escorts for settlers and workers. If you fail to escort them, you may as well just disband them as they are created. Besides barbarians, there's now teeming hordes of wolves, bears, panthers, and other such creatures to make little visits to your units and cities.

The wolves and such aren't bad if you've got some military units out looking for them. THose battles can level up your unit for promotion. No longer is there a attack/defense value to the units. It's a single strength value now. When attacking a unit, it will show you before hand the values of your target and also the bonuses that the terrain may give. Promoting is really great for creating specialized units as there are several different roles you can promote to. My scouts have been promoted to have bonuses of extra defense in the forest/jungle and on hills. My archers have City Defense bonuses and first strike abilities now.

The Great People still are cloudy to me. I somehow got Moses the Great last night. While being very cool to have the man with the power to part the Red Sea sitting in Athens, he also had the options to build several fun things. He could instantly discover a tech, work on a wonder, add population to the city, build certain kinds of temples, and a few others I forgot. I had him build the Temple of Solomon. As soon as it was done, you could see it in the city. (Note: there's no more city view as it's not needed. The city on the map is a real time reflection of the city and it's structures. Just zoom all the way in). Next thing I knew, I was the Judaism center of the world and receiving healthy benefits for supplying my people's one true God for the next 20 turns until I found another. :P

More to come! But so far, I'm having a great time.

**sorry for the spelling errors. It's early and I'm still working on my first coffee.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:47 am 
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I can echo Tetran's comments. I never played the previous games, but I quickly got up to speed with the interface. I am still a noob, and I need to comprehend the strategies, but last night I figured out how to do most things. I need to learn about the other screens and how to use them; so far I play 99% from the HUD.

One issue I have is that the map movement, and mouse over data is slow/choppy/delayed. I may need to adjust a graphic setting or two down to get that issue smooth.

I could not figure out how to do the holy man. I made one, and I was going to send him to other civs but he could not enter. As I type this I guess it may have been because I did not have open borders with those particular civs. If it is not that, then I just don’t know how to use that unit.

I did figure out how to bombard cities with the catapult. At first I was attacking the cities and loosing... but I finally noticed the bombard button and how it reduces the city defensive bonus. Those back stabbing Spanish started to go down quickly after that.

I need to learn more about managing workers. It seemed like in the beginning they were doing all kinds of things, but later they did nothing. I had them doing automatic stuff… but towards the end of the night they went doing much of anything. Then they would have an option highlighted in blue, yet they would never go do that option. Each round they had the same option, I told them to do it, yet it never got done.

All in all it was very fun. I see what you mean by “one more turn”.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:55 am 
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Cy, I had some missionaries too and I couldn't figure out what to do with them either. I thought about the open borders too, and you're probably right. I think you can also use them in some of your outlaying cities to convert them to your state religion if you have one and they are still unwashed infidels. It's a Halloween festivus at work today with all kinds of contests and activites, so it'll be a good day to research that.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 10:39 am 
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Tetran wrote:

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Barbarians actually take control of cities now, not just raize them. I found that out the hard way. You simply can not expand like you could in previous Civ games. Cities need good protection as well as security escorts for settlers and workers. If you fail to escort them, you may as well just disband them as they are created. Besides barbarians, there's now teeming hordes of wolves, bears, panthers, and other such creatures to make little visits to your units and cities.


I found this out the hard way...and it was the main reason i was gimped in my first game as I lost my scout and settle to barbarians and had to spend more turns than i wish to remember building a new one.

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think you can also use them in some of your outlaying cities to convert them to your state religion if you have one and they are still unwashed infidels.


That's my understanding too. I used them for this purpose. Helps with your culture points too I believe.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:16 am 
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Sounds awsome guys! Can't wait to pick it up. Might have to wait until Fri night now since some friends are coming over tonight and the ebgames downtown here (I work downtown so its the closest game shop) is charging $10 more than Futureshop/BestBuy.

Think we can start planning for a Tuesday night multiplayer game starting this coming week?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:26 am 
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Angelus wrote:
Think we can start planning for a Tuesday night multiplayer game starting this coming week?


I guess we'll need to get a sign up for commited players and a schedule day, or days, to play. I'm definitely game for the Avian Security Council lol


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 11:29 am 
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If enough of us are interested in forming online games and continuing discussions about this, we may want to form a Civilization wing in Avian...

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TheMole wrote:
If enough of us are interested in forming online games and continuing discussions about this, we may want to form a Civilization wing in Avian...


Not a bad idea there. Make it easier to follow game scheduling, trash talk, etc.

I have another question tho. Just saw many, many posts about the ATI video card problems. Anyone in Avian that has an ATI playing the game successfully yet? I have an ATI and might hold off on buying until this mess gets sorted out.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:18 pm 
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i have an ati card and its fine - 800xt agp version

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:37 pm 
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I run a Radeon 9800 Pro... not a single problem. Just make sure you install the DirectX that comes with the game. Supposedly it's a tweaked version and not available through other channels.

There's a lot of valid complaints, but many of them are hiding the fact, until later, that their equipment is just not up to snuff. Or they downloaded the game from a P2P service.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:46 pm 
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i'll tell you where i am having some problems is sound. The wonder movies music skips a lot for me, but my initial inclination is that its becuase i selected EAX4 and not EAX3. Not sure my sound driver is up to date on 4.

Going back to what good is a missionary: cities that differ from your state religion have more of a propensity to "flip" to the religion currently in vogue in your city. Other factors that influence whether a city flips is the other civs cultural prominence. Also as you expand your borders, your culture, and the use of missionaries can make it so cities you take over spend less time in resistance - where they don't produce / contribute anything.

Ahhh, I love slow days in the office where I can read the manual...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:39 pm 
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I was noticing the sound skipping on me in a couple of the wonder movies as well, and I had selected EAX2. I don't think it is the soundcard or drivers, but rather I think it is the hard drive access. After a turn completes, it starts loading all the other crap from the hard drive for the next turn at the same time its playing the stuff from the CD. I only had skipping problems when the hard drive activity was most intense.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:44 pm 
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well that's just crappy then, because i loaded the game up on my 10k drive. If it skips on a 10k drive what'll it do for others?

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 1:53 pm 
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The only movie that was problematic for me was the Oracle movie. Which is funny because that used to crash my game in Civ2! My drives are older 7.5k drives that have been in a number of different machines. I bet we'll be seeing some patches from Firaxis in the near future.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:56 pm 
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Okayyyyy...game 2 started out much better learned a few lessons, but obviously not enough as Washington and Philly are not in the hands of barbarians, consequently knocking me from 2nd down to last in the power rankings...can you say Ahman Green, Najeh Davenport, and the rest of the Packers on IR.

On to game 3...

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:09 pm 
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dbakke wrote:
Okayyyyy...game 2 started out much better learned a few lessons, but obviously not enough as Washington and Philly are not in the hands of barbarians,


Ahhh the war of 1812 scenario lol


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:31 pm 
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just checkin' in...game 3 is going okay...although i still suck, difficulty level one less than noble, still did a huge map with 11 or so other AI's...yup, and still in last place. Only lost one city to barbarians this time, after a failed attempt to take atlanta from roosy. But now I have catapults....

HAHAHAHAHA

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 7:54 am 
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I was never able to successfully play Civ 3 at much higher than the 3rd level. Of course, I also didn't spend a ton of time maximizing everything, either. How do you go about playing on such hard levels?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:03 am 
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Got mine installed and up and running. Played only a bit but as a true veteran of the previous three versions, count me in for multiplayer!

Regarding the barbarians, I think it was the first edition that allowed barbarians to take control of cities. Actually, I still have Civ I on my laptop that I travel with for work. Always will have a soft spot for that game.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2005 9:04 am 
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I started a new mp game with Sly with everyone at Noble level. Even with Sly and I double teaming the technology research we're still lagging behind the AI in terms of tech and just about everything else. And that should be impossible since we're getting tech faster than any of them possible could without cheating. For instance, to discover and found Buddism, it would take 1 civ 36 turns to do it (these number are arbitrary). If Sly and myself teamed up, we could get it in 12 turns. We're about 6 turns away from discovering it and a system message pops up stating someone already got it. I should point out it was also the first line of tech we went after. 36 turns had not even passed in the game yet. So for that AI to discover that tech, that quickly, is impossible without cheating.

As far as higher levels go, I dunno. I've been playing Civ since my freshman year in highschool when the first one came out. I like to think I know the ins and outs of the game, but the higher levels still destroy me. I play them, but usually with a gold cheat, as that's the only way I can seem to compete with the AI at that level. I usually make a custom map, with custom rules stating that player 1 starts with X gold and X technologies. There's some out there that analyze every aspect of the game such as "you need a courthouse, 4.2 archers, a barracks, and 3 such and such characters at this particular time for maximum efficiency". That's the same mentality that breaks down other games like WoW or SWG with DPS algorithms, armor stats broken down to the electrons that bind the virtual armor together... that just doesn't interest me. That's not fun, that's work. And that's perhaps why I still get served on a platter at higher levels.


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Got it installed and played for about an hour last night... still on the tutorial. I haven't played since Civ I, so I don't really know what i'm doing quite yet... all I can say is man, this game is complicated. Looks fun though! We'll see once I get out of the tutorial and am on my own.

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Life's Little Lessons:

- Don't wage a 350 year war to capture the rest of your island at the expense of everyone else. They'll eventually declare war on you and then you're screwed.
- Long Bowman suck the big <<insert noun such as whale here>>. In defeating an enemy city defended by long bowman stop all production on culture and incoming producing improvements as it will take you a dozen varied units to take down said city.
- Take advantage of military advantages in technology whether you have a good relationship with your neighbor...they'll screw you in the end anyways.

So I've got about 90 turns left before the end of the game and I'm in the middle of the pack of 11-12 AI players. I didn't fully defeat Ghenghis in the 350 year war... he still has one city on my island (and it tis...MY..island!), but i made peace with him as I had to move many of my units to the southwestern corner of the island as that is where Alexander had taken over a city with some calvary units and i only had grenadiers at best. He invaded since I wouldn't give him open borders. I didn't give anyone open borders because I didn't want units walking all over the island...figured it would work, but eventually people get annoyed with you and just declare war. Gonna have to work on my diplomatic skills it seems...He also invaded at the complete opposite end of the island where I had most of my units attacking Ghengis. Pretty sure he did that on purpose (AI is smart even on the lower levels it seems).

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I think I need to read the manual... my strategy needs a strategy.

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TheMole wrote:
I think I need to read the manual... my strategy needs a strategy.


At least you got the game. I'm still waiting for bloody FutureShop to get it in.

See my sig for the startegy to adopt! :lol:

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Tetran wrote:
So for that AI to discover that tech, that quickly, is impossible without cheating.


Is it not possible for AI civs to team up just as you and Sly are doing?

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Rocklar wrote:
Tetran wrote:
So for that AI to discover that tech, that quickly, is impossible without cheating.


Is it not possible for AI civs to team up just as you and Sly are doing?


I believe, and could be wrong, that the combined research bonus is for players that are "teamed", and not from a treaty or such. Teams are created in the MP load screen. I thought maybe an alliance would do it, but the AI's that get the religion first don't have any treaties with other AI's, nor do any other AI's have that particular religion anytime soon after. I've tried some single player games too and the AI ALWAYS get's buddism before me. I always get stuck being the world center for hinduism...It's kind of ironic in my current game, the Hindu Holy city (which is mine) is surrounded by cattle.


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Tetran wrote:
It's kind of ironic in my current game, the Hindu Holy city (which is mine) is surrounded by cattle.

:lol:
Hey...if we weren't meant to eat cattle, they wouldn't be made out of beef. Yummy, yummy beef.

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But another note on religion... get it all. Try and found every religion you can and spread it across the world as fast as you can. Not only does it help with your culture and influence, the gold from it is fantastic. You receive 1g per foreign city with your religion. My current MP game has me raking in over 600g per turn (I have my tech turned down to 40% to not get too far ahead of everyone). Send out waves and waves of missionaries, and use your Great Prophets to build their special temples in the holy cities. Having an income like that is awesome when you have adopted Emancipation, which allows you to rush construction for gold instead of slaves. Also, if a religion you founded was also your State Religion, it gives you a line of sight for ALL the cities in the world that have adopted your religion. I find that useful after I close my borders to be able to keep an eye on the savages.


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Rocklar wrote:
Tetran wrote:
It's kind of ironic in my current game, the Hindu Holy city (which is mine) is surrounded by cattle.

:lol:
Hey...if we weren't meant to eat cattle, they wouldn't be made out of beef. Yummy, yummy beef.



mmmmmmmmm....sacridelicious!


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dbakke wrote:
Life's Little Lessons:

- Don't wage a 350 year war to capture the rest of your island at the expense of everyone else. They'll eventually declare war on you and then you're screwed.
- Long Bowman suck the big <<insert noun such as whale here>>. In defeating an enemy city defended by long bowman stop all production on culture and incoming producing improvements as it will take you a dozen varied units to take down said city.
- Take advantage of military advantages in technology whether you have a good relationship with your neighbor...they'll screw you in the end anyways.

So I've got about 90 turns left before the end of the game and I'm in the middle of the pack of 11-12 AI players. I didn't fully defeat Ghenghis in the 350 year war... he still has one city on my island (and it tis...MY..island!), but i made peace with him as I had to move many of my units to the southwestern corner of the island as that is where Alexander had taken over a city with some calvary units and i only had grenadiers at best. He invaded since I wouldn't give him open borders. I didn't give anyone open borders because I didn't want units walking all over the island...figured it would work, but eventually people get annoyed with you and just declare war. Gonna have to work on my diplomatic skills it seems...He also invaded at the complete opposite end of the island where I had most of my units attacking Ghengis. Pretty sure he did that on purpose (AI is smart even on the lower levels it seems).



I always allow open borders because there are no sneak attacks and it allows trade with the other nations. If they declare war all units are moved outside your borders. You need the trade income to keep up with the computer players who are basically all getting it.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 12:14 pm 
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Quote:
I always allow open borders


In my last great victory, I did not allow open borders with just any civ. And it was my best game so far.

I kept my borders closed until I had a strong hold on a religion and had enough missionaries to convert my neighbors’ cities. Otherwise all the early religions will pollute my cities and give those civilizations the upper hand. Unlike all the other times, other civs were adopting my religion instead of me adopting theirs.

I only opened my borders when I was ready, and not to any fool who asked. Last time I only traded with those I wanted to keep the peace with because of their size or location. If my neighbor had lots of oil, and did not share my religion, I took them out. Also we had a land grab situation on my continent so closed borders allowed me to wall off some civs who got stuck with very little land. I headed up the research tree very fast, so I grabbed strategic resources before the others even knew they existed.

It seemed like I had more civs pleased with me this time than any time before. I think the fact that I infiltrated their cities with my religion offset the fact that I was rejecting almost all of their trade requests.

End the end I had my stealth bombers attacking their horse archers. I like to think it was because I did not accept just any trade. The AI will use you, so I thought really hard before trading. Once I was far enough ahead of the others, I would let them trade me the weak technology I had skipped.

In the end I overwhelmed them all, and when it happened, it happened very fast. I could be wrong, but I really think my success was that I was more calculating in my negotiations. I was seeking the upper hand in my research, and I did not let others mooch off of me lightly.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 2:47 pm 
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i continue to play on huge continents although in the last game i played i put the slider for tech discovery on fast as the first few times i played the game i was still riding around in a chariot (many of the other AI's were too) around the 1900's.

What's interesting to note here is the comment regarding religions and missionaries. I haven't been using them much..moreso in the last game where I ended up in 2nd place. I'll have to focus more time there.

On the diplomacy front, I found I was much more successful this time around by playing the different rulers off each other...getting them to fight each other. I had ignored this aspect of the game in my first couple of outings. I think its crucial to get them to fight each other. I also used the "walled approach" of doing land grabs and boxing some civs into small land areas. This definitely worked, but I was gimped in my latest, most successful outing by the fact that I was landlocked. i didn't build a single ship the entire game.

2 questions I have are:

1) Importance of taking out some civs early on

2) what skill level you all playing at? I settled in at one or two above settler (i think one).

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:07 pm 
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I've been playing at noble right now, with the AI at noble as well. This gives a level playing field. I found playing at warlord, with the AI at noble, ended up with me being a superpower towards the end with no real challenge left. The other countries were afraid to attack me and only popped in to make demands and empty threats. No military conflict.

I use your "walled off" approach in every game I play. If I see another civ near by and I'm lucky enough for there to be a land "bottleneck" or two between us (usually an ocean or lake causing the land bridge) I'll settle that area, regardless if there's any resources. It's purely a outpost. I'll have some settlers take up fortress duty and build The Great Wall of Scotoria (I'm VERY egocentric in my games :twisted: ). Once my borders, albeit very extended from home, are secure, I invest in my interior. You just need to do a good bit of exploring and map trading to get a complete feel of your surroundings and an idea of how big you want your core empire to be.

As far as picking off smaller civs, sure! But, only if the conditions are right. As in, do they have any established treaties with other civs? Are they exporting any religion that may lead to another civ being sympathetic to their fight against my New World Order? Would anyone really miss them? Some times I'll pick a war just to get a foothold in another part of the globe where my influence isn't so strong. Capture a city of two (barbarian run cities are good for this as well), quell the uprising, bring in the hordes of workers to bring the land up to my citizens standards of living, and construct the Forbidden Palace. The FP is great for culture and creating a new seat of government in your soon-to-be annexed empire. A Great Artist is a nice addition to drop a culture bomb in there too.

In my current game, Peter of the Russians asked me to go to war with Isabella of Spain. He asked me just after completion of my secondary seat of gov't I established in a captured barbarian city pushing up against Spain, Japan, and Russia. So I send in my calvary and artillery and follow Peter's armies around. I wait until they've beaten a city down to 1 or 2 protecting units and I move in, taking the city from under his nose. Add units, squish the rebellion, add culture, rinse and repeat. I now have a pretty large footprint in what used to be a wild jungle and parts of Spain's empire, consisting of about 4 cities. It's a little chaotic as well. Sly and I both have Open Borders with Russia which allows us to move our armies through his territory. It's the only way there. So little 2nd to last place Spain is now being picked apart part and parcel by the top three Civs. My armies made it there first, since I set up my second palace there, I have units to spare when Sly takes over a city. I can move some of my units into his newly aquired cities to help out with the insurgent forces. As long as Russia is sending in the lightning troops, I'll be there on horseback watching and playing opportunist.


Last edited by Tetran on Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2005 4:07 pm 
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Yikes, double post.


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